When, oh when, will the tide turn?

[IchbineinBerlinner]

I've been waiting and waiting for people to wake up to trans ideology. I've had complaints against my work. I've been blacklisted by organisations I used to work with. This is all coming to a head for me professionally speaking and I am so tired of waiting for people to understand what is going on. I have a tendency to be over-positive, so I'd like to hear Mumsnet's views: am I mad to think that this madness will stop soon?

The tide will turn. It always does. Most will get to the stage when people think ’whaaaattt???’ And start to really think about it. Especially when it affects them or their family.

Damage will be done though to children (mentally and physically), relationships, the LGB community, and businesses.

Thanks for answering... How much longer do you think we have to wait though?!

I wonder if this whole pandemic thing will help or hinder - on one hand, the grown ups are seeing self centred, unscientific rants while they are worried about keeping their jobs/keeping family safe/looking after elderly family and friends... but on the other, there’s an awful lot of kids and young adults on social media!

I am hoping (ever hopeful) that the pandemic will help hugely. The sex differences in the death rate establish the inappropriateness of self-identity and identity politics, in general, seems such a self-created 'problem' compared to the very real problem we now have on our hands.

I've got a horrible feeling it will be when the teenagers of today realise that transition didnt help and the underlying untreated mental issues are exacerbated.

I have a teenager - he and his classmates aren’t swallowing it.

@Pertella that'd be roughly 5 years away? I just can't face that. @Lordfrontpaw I too know teenagers that don't swallow it - but I also know teenagers that do swallow it

I have much less faith. One of my teen daughters reacts quite strongly to me talking of my gender critical views. But I am quietly chipping away. At first she saw it as me having blanket anti/LGBTQ views; thankfully though as my movement in to some feminist circles has gone on I have meant Ive met fabulous lesbians who she knows and loves.
Ironically it's more of the men in my life who have GC views. Some of those that were on the fence have acknowledged that as men they don't know what it feels like to be a woman - but after showing threads such as 'it'll never happen' they change their mind.

I think the good thing is that there has been debate in Parliament and the HoL recently - hopefully that can be sustained but right now we just need to keep ears and eyes open to make sure underhand tactics aren't deployed to regress things further.

I'm conflicted IchbineinBerlinnerhere We can see the recent massive growth in awareness from the public about the dangers of this movement. Understanding the tactics of intimidation, threats and bullying that have been used to enforce the beliefs (TWAW etc) of a tiny percentage of the population on the rest of us. So that in itself was starting to have an impact on the ability of the lobby groups to push through their demands.
BUT, these beliefs are well embedded in all of our powerful institutions and that will take some time to unravel. I hope that you're correct about the pandemic enabling society to re evaluate what is really important because if ever there was a time to throw out these self important narcissistic influencers in favour of those who actively contribute to the health and betterment of society, this is it.

I believe the tide is turning, albeit not as fast as I personally would like.

Some positives:

There are more and more critical tweets and tweets that disagree with the usual suspects on their timelines and those tweets are allowed to remain. Look at the recent Harrop v Arla debacle, if he had done this last year I suspect that the outcome and his twitter timeline would have looked very different.

The reaction to the Trans Pledge signed by candidates for the Labour leadership received scrutiny and widespread criticism and had the candidates who signed it twisting into all kinds of shapes to justify why they signed it and none of the candidates who signed it won the leadership contest.

Politicians are becoming increasingly aware that they will be questioned robustly on their stance and be expected to justify it coherently and cannot just fall back on tired old tropes which have been proven to be false, nor can they use emotional blackmail or nonsense soundbites and expect them to be just accepted.

The Scottish and UK Government have delayed the proposed reforms to the GRA , admittedly they have a far greater issue to deal with at the present time and we cannot afford to sit back and hope that it is all over, we need to keep up the pressure and ensure that it is not brought in through the back door whilst we are all looking elsewhere.

The public outside of the special bubble are becoming more and more aware of the ideology and are starting to understand that it means their mothers, wives, daughters, sisters, nieces will lose their dignity, privacy and safety in spaces supposedly segregated by sex and they aren't buying it. The unthinkable happened in the last election with dyed in the wool Labour voters voting Conservative because they were at odds with the Labour Party over Brexit, they won't go back to Labour if they have to sacrifice their female relatives on the altar of self-id.

Sunlight is pouring in on the hideous practice of treating children with puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and allowing them to undergo surgery. The whistleblowers and the legal cases and challenges to this and the information that will be brought into the public domain will not be pleasant for adherents to this ideology.

The Harry Miller case and the current behaviour of the Police during this crisis has brought them and their actions into the direct view of the public they are supposed to serve, police with consent and are accountable to. If the Police want to regain the trust and respect of the public which is crucial to the performance of their role they are going to have to take a long hard look at themselves and their actions and change. They are skating on thin ice at the moment.

The retail sector, already struggling prior to the lock down due to the rise in online purchases, is going to need the public to come back into their stores and buy their products otherwise they will go under. They need to make people want to come in and buy what they are selling and pandering to a vocal minority of men who want to try on clothes in the same spaces as women and young girls is not going to tempt those women and girls to do that.

The response from Arla in the Harrop debacle was perfect, they garnered a huge amount of support for saying 'No' to his ludicrous demands and will likely see an increase in their product sales due to that, unlike Flora who caved last year and have seen a marked decrease in their sales. Other companies will see the difference and realise that there is an alternative to craven cowardice.

The unfairness of including male bodied people in women's sport is resonating with the general public, it is not welcome or popular and is seen for the dangerous, destructive idea that it is. Sport needs the public to watch and support it, sponsors of sport need the public to watch, support and buy their products, they can't afford a public backlash or for the public to switch off.

Sorry for the length, there is still a lot of work to be done, we can't become complacent, the lobby is powerful and has it's tentacles spread far and wide but progress is being made.

BUT, these beliefs are well embedded in all of our powerful institutions and that will take some time to unravel.

This. I think there has been a long period where those who support these policies have quietly infiltrated organisations and deliberately targeted positions where they can exert influence.

As the harms of this ideology were not recognised (the more extreme views were carefully hidden) they were able to do this without anyone questioning it. Indeed having a male transitioner high up within a women’s organisation would have appeared progressive.

These male transitioners are then activated when the time is right. Nobody questions their sudden ‘realisation’ that the time is right to fight for trans rights. Who would, when the rhetoric about rising hate crime has been so successfully sold?

This has been a concerted, well coordinated attack on women’s rights, and we still have no idea of how many of this eminence grise positions remain under the radar.

The tide is turning, and it will accelerate, but it’s going to be a long time before all the damage is undone.

I think the tide is definitely on the turn. But just as the tide doesn’t abruptly change direction neither will this. It is slowing, meeting resistance, legal challenges etc. It might not have quite reached ‘high tide’ yet but it is increasingly hard for them to make an impression. As the legal challenges or the implications of policies And ‘treatment‘ become apparent there will be a retreat. This will start off very gradually, hardly perceptible but will gradually pick up pace. The tide has been taking years to come in. In ten years time it will be heading out so far people will be denying they had anything to do with it.

Thank you @RedDogsBeg , I really needed to hear all that. It's inarguable when it is put like that the hearts and minds of the public are changing. @AnyOldPrion I know the institutional capture has been comprehensive but I hope the public will see through that soon. I'm so exhausted by it.

Another bit of positive movement IchbineinBerlinner in the thread on here entitled A bit of good news from the Safe Schools Alliance, might be worth you reading it and the background.

As I said on that thread the optics on this do not look good for TRA's and their advocates as a 13 year old girl has brought the case. It will be interesting to see how/if they attack her and her concerns.

I am wary, even though I feel the tide is turning, because as has been said on here the capture of institutions, organisations, politicians, is widespread and will take a monumental effort to remove. I am disgusted and will never forgive those who have allowed this ideology to permeate, capture and takeover these institutions unchecked, those who are too stupid, too lazy, or too desperate to appease, who failed to apply any thinking let alone critical thinking to this ideology and see it for what it is and where it would lead. A 13 year old girl has had the capacity and intelligence to see it and shown more guts and bravery than these craven, pathetic cowards, perhaps they'd like to reflect on that whilst they languish at home under this lock down.

I think there are several different tides. The tide of children being prescribed PBs has already started to turn in the UK and will turn in north America, once the class action law suits begin in earnest. It is the aspect of the trans activism that is most likely to be abandoned completely in time, once TRAs realise that supporting the transition of children is harmful to their overall cause.

The tide of teens wanting to identify as trans will turn as a new generation arises - the last generation's trends are always deeply uncool. This won't stop kids with genuine gender dysphoria exploring being trans, but it should stop social contagion, so the numbers will be much lower.

The tide of adult TW being allowed to access women's spaces will, I fear, never turn completely. For the rest of our lives, certainly, we will need to guard against encroachment, because there will always be AGP TW who get off on invading women-only spaces. However, we will get more support once gay men finally wake up to the homophobia of trans activism. At the moment, it''s still 'bros before hos' - gay men automatically support TW over women (almost as if they can tell there's a difference..). But transactivism is an existential threat to the gay rights movement and there are signs of more gay men realising that.

I would like to see GG reverse their policy of allowing male bodied guide leaders, share overnight accommodation with teenage girls. That would be progress.

I just don't know. I kind of wonder what's next?
My gut feel is that of worry for when many transed kids realise they were the right sex after all.

I thought the Olympics this year might have had an eye-opening effect, but obviously not yet. I think sport will bring it more into the public consciousness.

Thanks for answering... How much longer do you think we have to wait though?

Personally think it is going to be a decade/15 years......or maybe even longer. The ideology has captured many institutions and informed institutional practices...and they are very slow to change. It is also going to take lots more de-transitioners telling their story; court cases; medical and surgical complications coming to light; for key funders to grow old and maybe even pass away ( Pritzker etc)

I agree, it will take time. But I think there is already in the UK more acceptance that there is controversy, so being able to be honest about that may begin to improve sooner rather than later.

I am really rather envious, here in Canada there is no sign of any change, quite the opposite.

I am really rather envious, here in Canada there is no sign of any change, quite the opposite

Why do you think that is? Is nobody really questioning it? What are the specific cultural factors that have enabled it to such a degree?

*Justhad
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Yes, I agree, sadly.

I think it's up to us now to teach our new generation of children and young adults to learn the art of critical thinking

Why do you think that is? Is nobody really questioning it? What are the specific cultural factors that have enabled it to such a degree?

You have no idea how much time I've spent asking myself that question. I haven't really come up with a good answer, just some thoughts.

It seems difficult to connect to others who think similarly, there is nothing like mumsnet. I suspect that there are more Canadians with concerns on MN than on any Canadian focused forum. I find it difficult, and I am looking, to find information about specific Canadian political and policy issues, too. There is a little going on in BC, but that is farther away from me than the UK!

Institutions here have been very captured, quite quietly in general. I understand that locally to me there was something of a purge of GC women from local left political parties - I heard this on MN though, I haven't been able to find anything out beyond that. The only real pushback was Jordan Peterson and Meghan Murphy over C-16, but it happened so fast that it didn't raise too many worries.

There is probably a significant character element. I remember when same sex marriage was being debated both here and in the US. My friend who had been living in the US for a while commented that it had a very different character there where the pro-side was very ideological. On the Canadian side, it was much more about being kind and nice to all, accepting. Often ideology simply isn't examined in much detail, it's very live and let live.

I would actually go so far as to say it's intellectually irresponsible, and I think that for some time this is the kind of thinking that has been taught in schools. Students get very little content in terms of logic, philosophy, history, other than what is directed to an identity politics agenda.

The national broadcaster, the CBC, has been completely captured, as badly or worse than the BBC. There isn't much of a different viewpoint available at a national level. Politically, three of four major parties are completely captured, not only on this issue but the whole of ID politics. The Conservative OTOH have been taken over by incompetent yahoos who make BJ look like a political genius.

And also from a politics POV, there has been less and less acceptance of different views within political parties. The PM has made a lot of political hay by presenting anyone who disagrees with his vision of Canada as being against Canadian Values. Questions and issues which used to be considered to be beyond party politics are now whipped issues. Even the Greens, who specifically prohibit whipping have now made it clear that they make sure candidates toe the line in other ways, without even blushing.

TBH I have very little hope of change.

TBH I have very little hope of change

Then it will probably have to come from other countries taking more of a lead, maybe?

Do you think there is anything in the argument that ex colonial nations - and also smaller nations such as Scotland, are more susceptible to this kind of liberal, 'be nice' politics?

It is a shame that the Olympics have been delayed, because I think that would have shone an (Olympic) torch on the issue.

I also think the Labour Party deciding they didn't want women with GC views - and the reaction - will make politicians more cautious about who they call bigoted in future.

But there is still a very long way to go. The institutional capture goes deep