When, oh when, will the tide turn?

[IchbineinBerlinner]

I've been waiting and waiting for people to wake up to trans ideology. I've had complaints against my work. I've been blacklisted by organisations I used to work with. This is all coming to a head for me professionally speaking and I am so tired of waiting for people to understand what is going on. I have a tendency to be over-positive, so I'd like to hear Mumsnet's views: am I mad to think that this madness will stop soon?

^ Exactly

Although the left have undoubtedly fucked it up massively, ALL of politics has to start giving a shit about women.
We’ll have a right wing government for the foreseeable so I want to see the Tories actually doing something tangible to help women, since only they have the majority to do so.

Someone’s right to exist should not be up for debate.

Roughly translated - only women's right to exist should be up for debate.

Tinkerbell

So are you objecting to people transitioning OR the issues around safe spaces for women eg prisons etc? These are two very distinct issues. I agree with people having the right to transition - please don't make assumptions about my other views. (and be abusive about it). I object to the idea of 'trans ideology' because that assumes a political driving force. Yes there are scary headline issues, but underneath all that there are thousands of ordinary good trans people who want to live a normal life. Gender dysphoria (don't like the medicalised term but you know what I'm referring to) exists in individuals and ALWAYS has. It is a natural part of humankind. Do you not accept this? and if you do then what should these people do? That's where humanity comes in. Someone transitioning does NOT actually take away someone else's rights... It's the other stuff (safe spaces etc) that is at issue. Object to all that by all means, just don't conflate the two and stir up hatred in the process. Your prejudice is showing.

And just to add, that is why I was sad to see it on the 'feminist' board. By all means debate the legislative stuff in relation to women's rights but trans issues are not inherently anti-women. Portraying trans women as predators and rapists is harmful and innacurate. Yes there are trans people who are these things, but i would argue that 99.9% are NOT and so please try and be clear who and what you're objecting to and don't conflate the issues.

Transition is an interesting word. It would imply that one thing actually becomes another.

There is absolutely an ideology and a "political driving force" involved with the trans rights demands movement.

I accept that some people very rarely have a psychological condition where they reject their sexed body. I don't accept that that makes them the opposite sex, or that other people should be forced to believe that they are and validate them as such.

And they are likely to be a minority of the overall population of people under the "trans umbrella".

TBH, I don't even know what people mean by the word 'transition' these days. It used to mean genital surgery, but not anymore. And as Lordfrontpaw said, it implies something that isn't a possibility.

Gender dysphoria obviously exists. I think that as a society we should be looking more into the issues that surround that condition rather than saying that chopping off body parts is the only treatment (I won't use the word 'cure' because it's not a cure).

I also find it barbaric that society is so happy to accept that a man who doesn't identify with the bullshit standards of masculinity is allowed to be put into the group of 'women' if they chop their cock off. The amount of blokes I've heard say things like "well if they've gone all the way..." Men need to grow the fuck up and stop doing the equivalent of "ew - girl" at men who they don't feel are manly enough. Transwomen exist - get over it, right?

Women are not 'non-men' or 'men without cocks'.

I don't understand how it's progressive. It just seems sexist to me.

And noone has said that trans women are predators and rapists. Some are - it’s been documented and cases have been in the press. Where did someone indicate that they all are?

Some who push and demand ‘trans rights’ are asking for ‘rights’ that put women and girls at risk and pushes them aside. If that can’t be discussed on a feminist board then I’m not sure what you think feminism is.

Women being told what to do, think and accept (#nodebate) is just not right. Pregnant women = pregnant ‘people’? Give me a break.

but trans issues are not inherently anti-women

Gender identity ideology, where (sex based) stereotypes alone determine whether you are a woman, erasing women's sex based oppression and ignoring sex based rights, is "inherently anti women" in my opinion. Don't tell women how they can speak.

And don’t get me started on Lesbian Visibility Week promos.

Someone transitioning does NOT actually take away someone else's rights

Actually, they do. Of course they do. On many fronts too.

The women who don’t want to share a space with people with penises are having their rights removed for safe spaces simply by those transwomen insisting on being in those spaces? At the moment, third spaces are being rejected because it invalidates them.

Then there are women’s sports.

And let’s not forget that sal brinton says she is happy if a board has 50% men and 50% transwomen because they are women. This is obviously an extreme example but perfectly highlights the fact that women’s right to have employment opportunities will again be eroded. And that many of those transwomen will have got to where they are because of male privelege in the first place. And why hire a female of child bearing age when you can hire a transwoman who won’t have pregnancy issues.

Currently in the US, a group of non binary politicians are campaigning to remove the legislation around forcing 50% women in representational roles. Mmm... where will that go for women then? It won’t be the men missing out. From what I saw the majority of the NB pollies were male. But I could be wrong.

Then let’s move on to the current lesbian visibility day/week. Do you believe that women have the right to say they don’t want to have sex with males? Because the internet is currently alive with people calling women choosing the right to only have sex with biological women as transphobic.

And the right for women to request another female for intimate health procedures without being labeled transphobic.

And that is not touching on the transitioning of children issue.

No. Again. The majority of us have no issue with people transitioning and there are those who want a peaceful life. But also look at who is now included in stonewall’s trans umbrella. However to say that women’s rights are NOT being eroded is simply naive at best, or at worst you simply choose to ignore the issues are there for whatever reason.

And again, please stop wokescolding. If you have something to say, stop with the ‘bad women you are all transphobes’ please.

Instead, please provide some actual fact led assurances that women’s rights are actually not being eroded. I would really like people using the transphobe card to actually show this. Can you ?

However to say that women’s rights are NOT being eroded is simply naive at best, or at worst you simply choose to ignore the issues are there for whatever reason.

This.

So perhaps emerjeanne, you can come back next time with some stats that prove that 99% of transwomen are not predators or rapists (including those threatening to rape terfs, as you know, actual rapists because obviously that’s their fall back position to being thwarted ).

Could you start by backing up your assertions with more than empirical evidence that is shoddy at best because under Stonewall’s definition there is absolutely no way to know how many people are transgender so you cannot know for a fact that 99% are as you say.

Exactement!

I am just over being told off by people who never have any substantive to add except ‘your transphobic’ and this is not a feminist issue.

Transwomen are men. They commit crimes at the same rate as other men.

Under stonewall law if tomorrow my 40 something DH suddenly decides to identify a woman and wear women’s clothes he is as much a woman as I am and always has been.

Any sport he excels at what be recorded as a woman, any crime report he’d be listed as a woman, he could compete with me to get on schemes designed to improve the representation of women and If he beat me he’d be there as a woman. Oh and I would suddenly be redefined as a lesbian because I’m in a relationship with a woman

Now tell us again why self ID is no threat to women

It’s odd that people who say ‘of course a trans woman should be in women’s jails/ wards/ changing rooms’ on the basis of them being ‘no different’, don’t have the same ideas about trans men in male estates because - wait for it - they are different (physically generally weaker, smaller etc) and potentially at risk from males.

I object to the idea of 'trans ideology' because that assumes a political driving force.

Then you're woefully under informed. That's precisely what it is.

underneath all that there are thousands of ordinary good trans people who want to live a normal life

Look around on this board. Look on Twitter. Look how this political driving force treats trans people who say 'hang on a minute' or say they have other needs and views, or don't believe that they can be trans while remaining their own biological sex because sex is a reality, or that women matter too, or God forbid, say they want to detransition? They are viciously attacked. Go and look at the articles by Debbie Hayton, Miranda Yardley and other transsexual people sharing their experience which conflicts with this political movement. The most recent example on the boards here of a non trans 'ally' who regularly posts to defend this political decision was of them going for a long term trans MNetter with a shocking nastiness they'd never unleashed on GC women. They did everything but call them an 'Uncle Tom'.

They do not care about all trans people by any means, they certainly don't represent all trans people, and the figure heads of this political lobby - who are the ones talking directly to government select committees, delivering training, running the political lobby groups, leading social media (and actual physical threatening and assault of females daring to discuss their rights in public) - are a political male supremacism movement.

For goodness sake do some reading and thinking, you've got a nice sympathetic view point there but you're missing one hell of a lot of the facts. I care about all people, regardless of their political affiliations, and won't sign up to anything that places them in a hierarchy of superiority, nor believes that denying people rights, and treating them abusively, is fine if they don't obey your exact political views.

It's frankly bizarre to claim there is no political driving force.

emerjeanne - a ‘newbie’ to mumsnet.

Yeah right. We’re not idiots.