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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Julie Bindel - there-s-nothing-empowering-about-the-sex-work-on-onlyfans

113 replies

LadyBBKing · 16/04/2020 14:30

Someone may have already posted this (sorry, working stupid hrs at the moment, haven't been keeping up) but has anyone seen Julie B's latest article? The comments on the Twitter feed are disgusting. I've only had a 3 min look but ugh.

twitter.com/bindelj/status/1250397469189513216?s=20
www.spectator.co.uk/article/there-s-nothing-empowering-about-the-sex-work-on-onlyfans

I for one love the writings of a select few of the Spectator journalists so (if you're reading this Julie) I think kudos to her for this being published here, many of my more woke friends have left reading the Guardian and BBC because of horrendous CV-19 reporting.

OP posts:
KatesMott · 18/04/2020 01:43

PositiveVibez

Please don’t apologise I absolutely haven't taken any offence and appreciate your question came from a good place and I do appreciate you looking out for me Xx

PositiveVibez · 18/04/2020 01:48
Flowers
KatesMott · 18/04/2020 01:49

PositiveVibez

I’ve never felt abandoned and I know people who have fathers but have difficult fractured relationships. I can’t say really what the impact of just being brought up with a single mum had as I’ve never known any different so it’s hard to hypothesise. I had a lot of love and support from my mum so I guess I didn’t ever feel I missed out but I know this isn’t the same for others in similar situations.

KathyBriggs360 · 18/04/2020 01:52

No that's ok just ignore me or don't acknowledge me at all for my mistake, that isn't incredibly rude or anything Hmm

KatesMott · 18/04/2020 01:53

Anyway sorry for hijacking the thread! Thanks for listening to my experiences as much as they are a divergent to the majority. It’s appreciated Smile

PositiveVibez · 18/04/2020 01:54

My sister is the same katesmott

I'm just gonna say horses for courses, and we can cordially agree to disagree I hope, but I don't think that females brought up with healthy female/male relationships, would ever take this path

DidoLamenting · 18/04/2020 01:55

KatesMott
Are you suggesting I should think less of her because of the choices she’s made?

Not at all. I am suggesting you should think less of men willing to use women as fuck-holes

I would and do think less of your friend. It's got nothing to do with prudery about sex (although the promoters of the "sex industry" love to peddle that myth)

Your friend does women no service at all. I certainly think less of men who think it's acceptable to pay to use women as fuck- holes. I also think less of women like your friend, who presumably has plenty of other options, going along with the idea that it's acceptable for women to be paid to used as fuck holes.

KatesMott · 18/04/2020 01:55

@KathyBriggs360

Sorry if I missed something! Just catching up with replies after writing my biography 😂 If that was for me I didn’t mean to be rude

PositiveVibez · 18/04/2020 01:56

Sorry if that sounds rude or is offensive in any way at all.

It's just my opinion that probs isn't worth jack shit.

DidoLamenting · 18/04/2020 01:59

Anyone who thinks they are ethical, business savvy, or any other bullshit spin word, is really just profiteering on the misery of millions of women worldwide and they’re just lucky enough to not do too badly themselves

So they can fuck right off IMO

100% agree. So yes, KatesMott, I do judge your friend.

PositiveVibez · 18/04/2020 02:01

I also think less of women like your friend, who presumably has plenty of other options, going along with the idea that it's acceptable for women to be paid to used as fuck holes

That is not my opinion at all btw. I think a rocky road has lead these women to this path. There are a lot of factors involved in why women think that this is a valid choice. Mostly it's drugs, which they take because they've been fucked over by men.

Sometimes it is because they need to feel validated by men.

The underlying theme is that it's not 'just a job'. They all got there somehow and it's usually to do with being fucked over by men.

KatesMott · 18/04/2020 02:04

PositiveVibez

My sister is the same katesmott

I'm just gonna say horses for courses, and we can cordially agree to disagree I hope, but I don't think that females brought up with healthy female/male relationships, would ever take this path

There may be something in that but it opens up a can of worms I guess. One of the best relationships I know of is a lesbian couple who have twins, one of them has developed severe OCD as a teenager. It would feel wrong to link that back to not having the correct male/female relationships modelled and I know that’s not what anyone is saying here but I know people who also know them who have suggested just that and I find that problematic. Childhood is fraught with difficulty regardless and growing up can be hard. We could pontificate on what’s right or wrong in terms of upbringing ad infinitum.

I know my views aren’t shared by most on here in terms of sex work etc so I’ll bow out now. I don’t want to be antagonistic and I do truly appreciate all points of view and I’m grateful to those who’ve tolerated mine

PositiveVibez · 18/04/2020 02:16

Agree with what you are saying. Healthy relationships are important regardless of sex, biut if you have grown up knowing that your dad is a man, your mum is a woman, and the relationship didn't pan out and your dad was a cunt, it's going to have an affect.

DidoLamenting · 18/04/2020 06:31

That is not my opinion at all btw. I think a rocky road has lead these women to this path. There are a lot of factors involved in why women think that this is a valid choice. Mostly it's drugs, which they take because they've been fucked over by men

Sometimes it is because they need to feel validated by men

Not buying that. There always has to be an excuse for women's behaviour hasn't there?

If KatesMott's friend is genuinely the happy hooker Kate is making her out to be I have as much contempt for her as I have for her punters

QuentinWinters · 18/04/2020 10:06

notbad that is a brilliant brilliant post Star

FannyCann · 18/04/2020 10:17

"I thought I might get a better class of perv if I signed up to OnlyFans"

Pretty sure there isn't a "better class" of perv.

FamilyOfAliens · 18/04/2020 10:51

@NotBadConsidering

I’ve cut and pasted your post for future use as it’s 100% on point and expresses everything I feel about the sex industry in a clear and coherent way.

pachyderm · 18/04/2020 17:13

Great post notbadconsidering

Another thing is: the sex industry is globalised now. Women are trafficked from every corner of the earth to work in it for less and less money - simple supply and demand. So while the pimp lobby has succeeded in normalising prostitution in a way it never has before, it is surely less likely than ever that you will get rich from it unless you do extreme stuff? The competition is huge.

DidoLamenting · 18/04/2020 22:18

NotBadConsidering

I’ve cut and pasted your post for future use

Me too.

Goosefoot · 19/04/2020 00:23

I'm not really up for judging individuals I know little about. I think it's enough to look at the picture overall to say, I think this is damaging, for society, for individuals.

Looking at what motivates individuals is useful in understanding how they get to a particular place, or in trying to figure out how to prevent some situation, but two people in a similar place may have totally different personal stories. One may be completely personally culpable, quite happy to screw over other people. Another may be conditioned by circumstances that mean they aren't really making anything like a free decision. Most people probably have some limitations and some culpability.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 19/04/2020 00:33

I think that regardless of what you think about any of the individuals involved the normalization of prostitution is bad for society in very obvious ways. It only takes spending some time in a place where there's an active red light district to realize that.

Goosefoot · 19/04/2020 02:08

Yeah. I think that maybe it's inevitable though so long as sex is treated transactionally in general. Once a lot of people accept that, it's logical that it can be monetised and it's a losing battle to oppose that without changing the view of it as transactional.

hoodathunkit · 20/04/2020 13:07

Sure, on the face of it I don't think it really tells us one way or another what we should think about the concept of sex as work, or how we should treat it in terms of social policy. Personally I think for the individuals involved it's psychologically damaging, though not necessarily more so than other sexual acts that we leave up to people to choose. That may impact what people are thinking when they talk about people being mentally healthy.

I think it's just a rabbit hole though to get too caught up in arguing about whether there are some people who do well. There have always been a few people who do, it's not really the issue.

I agree with this

She has a list of men who pay to use her body as a wank sock.

I would like to address this claim, which is often made here on mumsnet, in relation to prostitution. The claim that men who buy sex are using women as “wank socks” or “fuck holes”.

A very obvious thing that many with entrenched views in this debate completely miss is that vary often the women who do well, at least in my experience, are the women who combine natural, conventional beauty with an approachable, “girl next door” vibe. This was illustrated quite well in the Nudes4Sale documentary where the young woman who reported making obscene amounts of money, combined conventional beauty with a friendly, chatty nature. She also spent most of her time replying to texts and emails from “fans” thus providing an illusion of intimacy.

Another young woman on the programme had clearly “had some work done", lip filler, etc. and had a much more pornified look and vibe. This young woman was earning far less than the girl next door type, as one might expect.

This raises an important issue that most people unfamiliar with the sex industry often fail to understand; for the most successful earners sex is not the primary commodity, the primary commodity is intimacy, or the illusion of intimacy. Sex is merely the vehicle for the “intimacy” to be provided.

Obviously this is not the case with punters who pay a drug addicted, desperate woman £5 for a blow job. It is not the issue for a man who, even if he can afford to pay an escort who either genuinely enjoys his/her work (a minority do IME) or who possesses sufficient acting skills as to be convincing in this respect, chooses instead to pay a desperate and vulnerable person to engage in sexual acts they find disgusting and traumatic.

Different men want different experiences, some enjoy the suffering of a desperate person via a process of sexual sadism. Some are indifferent as to whether the sex worker suffers providing they can stick it in a hole and obtain relief for their urges. Most men who buy sex on the streets probably fall into these categories.

However when you start to look at the dynamics and relating between escorts / courtesans and higher paid sex workers the dynamics are completely different.

Highly paid sex workers such as escorts and courtesans very often use skills of persuasion, sometimes including NLP and hypnotism, in order to persuade clients that they have a genuine emotional connections with one another.

Some criminal cults operate training courses where they train men and women in sexual skills, massage skills, erotic dance, pole dance, seduction skills, hypnosis, NLP, persuasion skills and other skills (for example the covert administration of drugs).

These schools now operate all over the world and are often marketed as “empowerment” courses, teaching men and women sexual secrets / tantric massage etc.

This proliferation of pseudo-academic training courses that teach people how to use sex to manipulate others raises an important question about who exactly is the exploited party and who is the exploiter?

The point I am making is that while prostitution is undoubtably exploitative in many cases, the nature of the exploitation can be a complex and nuanced thing depending on the specific situation and the context.

Just an example; a very lonely, vulnerable with multiple disabilities who has never had a sexual experience with another person attends one of Tuppy Owens’ various “empowering” events and as a result, is persuaded to pay a male or female sex worker to help her learn how to have sex. That sex worker (who may be male or female) seems happy and enthusiastic about helping people to enjoy fulfilling sex lives and gives no impression of being coerced or trafficked. However the sex worker belongs to a criminal cult that uses sex and sex workers to recruit new members and then exploit them sexually, financially and in various other ways.

In this situation who is the exploited person and who is the exploiter?

If readers are interested in learning about how some of the cultic sex workers operate they can watch a documentary (NSFW obviously) on Channel 5 here that includes extensive interviews and footage showing some male sex workers who provide services to women. I have not watched this for a while but 2 of the sex workers featured are involved with extremely dangerous cults, one is very involved in the paedophile cult the Deer Tribe, the other I will post more about soon

www.my5.tv/the-sex-business/season-2/episode-3

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 20/04/2020 13:13

I realize that trying to raise awareness of cults is probably your main focus, hoodathunkit, but suggesting that we suspend feminist analysis of the power dynamics at work in the sex industry because some of the people who some punters are paying for sex may be cult recruiters is a bit much. The vast majority of the sex industry does not operate on that model.

hoodathunkit · 20/04/2020 13:28

I realize that trying to raise awareness of cults is probably your main focus, hoodathunkit, but suggesting that we suspend feminist analysis of the power dynamics at work in the sex industry because some of the people who some punters are paying for sex may be cult recruiters is a bit much.

I am not asking you to suspend feminist analysis of anything

really I'm not

I am inviting you to consider that things may be a little more nuanced and complex than you claim they are

I am suggesting that what you think is an analysis might not be as analytical as you imagine

The vast majority of the sex industry does not operate on that model.

In countries where the Nordic model operates there are "tantric temples" flourishing everywhere

They are exploitative in a very different way to the way that you understand exploitation to work.

The "temples" are staffed by men and women. The clients / punters are men and women.

They claim to be offering therapeutic and spiritual services. They typically have notices on their websites and premises stating "we do not provide sexual services".

These notices are as truthful as the ones you find in massage parlours stating the same thing and asking clients to refrain from asking for "extras".

I compleltely understand the provisional nature of my understanding of these issues.

I am always open to learning more about any issue at all and thus to changing my mind.

I believe that any truly analytical approach, whether feminst or not, should always be open to new data. Othewise it isn't really an analysis is it?

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