Non-binary from a gender critical perspective

[Babolat]

How is non-binary understood from a gender critical perspective? I’m getting tied up in knots trying to get my head round it.

I had a friend tell me her boyfriend has come out as nb and she's now call him "they". I just stayed silent. How can I explain that I refuse to play along and that I think it's all a bunch of harmful cobblers without alienating her?

It can be helpful to separate out the parts.
A friend's boyfriend has made public that he is identifying as non-binary. What that actually means is unknown.

A friend has confusingly started using plural pronouns (they/them) when discussing her boyfriend. She has the right to use the language she chooses to (although as a friend one might be concerned that she had been coerced to do this)

There should not be a requirement to adopt belief in genderism/ subscribe to Queer theory or modify your language useage with regards the function of singular person pronouns when the sex of the person is known.

Rebecca Reilly Cooper's article is very good:

'Gender is not a spectrum
The idea that ‘gender is a spectrum’ is supposed to set us free. But it is both illogical and politically troubling'
(extract)
Many proponents of the queer view of gender describe their own gender identity as ‘non-binary’, and present this in opposition to the vast majority of people whose gender identity is presumed to be binary. On the face of it, there seems to be an immediate tension between the claim that gender is not a binary but a spectrum, and the claim that only a small proportion of individuals can be described as having a non-binary gender identity. If gender really is a spectrum, doesn’t this mean that every individual alive is non-binary, by definition? If so, then the label ‘non-binary’ to describe a specific gender identity would become redundant, because it would fail to pick out a special category of people. (continues)

If gender is a spectrum, that means it’s a continuum between two extremes, and everyone is located somewhere along that continuum. I assume the two ends of the spectrum are masculinity and femininity. Is there anything else that they could possibly be? Once we realise this, it becomes clear that everybody is non-binary, because absolutely nobody is pure masculinity or pure femininity. Of course, some people will be closer to one end of the spectrum, while others will be more ambiguous and float around the centre. But even the most conventionally feminine person will demonstrate some characteristics that we associate with masculinity, and vice versa.

I would be happy with this implication, because despite possessing female biology and calling myself a woman, I do not consider myself a two-dimensional gender stereotype. I am not an ideal manifestation of the essence of womanhood, and so I am non-binary. Just like everybody else. However, those who describe themselves as non-binary are unlikely to be satisfied with this conclusion, as their identity as ‘non-binary person’ depends upon the existence of a much larger group of so-called binary ‘cisgender’ people, people who are incapable of being outside the arbitrary masculine/feminine genders dictated by society.

And here we have an irony about some people insisting that they and a handful of their fellow gender revolutionaries are non-binary: in doing so, they create a false binary between those who conform to the gender norms associated with their sex, and those who do not. In reality, everybody is non-binary. We all actively participate in some gender norms, passively acquiesce with others, and positively rail against others still. So to call oneself non-binary is in fact to create a new false binary. It also often seems to involve, at least implicitly, placing oneself on the more complex and interesting side of that binary, enabling the non-binary person to claim to be both misunderstood and politically oppressed by the binary cisgender people." (continues)

Nobody, and certainly no radical feminist, wants to stop anyone from defining themselves in ways that make sense to them, or from expressing their personality in ways they find enjoyable and liberating.

So if you want to call yourself a genderqueer femme presenting demigirl, you go for it. Express that identity however you like. Have fun with it. A problem emerges only when you start making political claims on the basis of that label – when you start demanding that others call themselves cisgender, because you require there to be a bunch of conventional binary cis people for you to define yourself against; and when you insist that these cis people have structural advantage and political privilege over you, because they are socially read as the conformist binary people, while nobody really understands just how complex and luminous and multifaceted and unique your gender identity is. To call yourself non-binary or genderfluid while demanding that others call themselves cisgender is to insist that the vast majority of humans must stay in their boxes, because you identify as boxless." (continues)
aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

because you require there to be a bunch of conventional binary cis people for you to define yourself against; and when you insist that these cis people have structural advantage and political privilege over you, because they are socially read as the conformist binary people, while nobody really understands just how complex and luminous and multifaceted and unique your gender identity is.

This seems to resonate particularly well.

Well yes, it's like back in the '90s when all the cool jounos who wrote for Time Out (which was my bible back in the day) incessantly complained about all the "suits" cluttering up bars, pubs and clubs on Friday nights. The fact that wearing a suit to your job and going out with your coworkers on a Friday didn't necessarily mean you didn't have multiple body piercings and spend your weekends campaigning for Greenpeace or Amnesty didn't seem to occur to them.

It's non-existent. The way I see it is there are two sexes, female and male. 99+% of people are male or female, the rest have aberrant physical development and are intersex. Intersex people are NOT a third sex.

Gender to me is a made-up term for what someone feels they are, a man or a woman. However, no one has been able to explain to me what it feels like to be a woman or a man. And how can you feel something that you are not? How can a male really feel like a woman when he does not have the body of a woman or the experience of being a girl and a woman in our society? I think people can find sex stereotypes difficult to deal with, but to me that doesn't make an effeminate male a women or a tomboy female a man. How about we go back to understanding there are two sexes: female and male, and that females are women, males are men. And be more tolerant as a society to men and women who do not fit the sex stereotypes. A boy liking pink or playing with ponies doesn't make him a girl, a girl playing with a model dump truck or rolling around in the mud doesn't make her a boy. Let kids pick their own toys and activities, and let kids an adults wear what they want within the dress code for that space or activity. I have 0 problem with men wearing skirts or using a handbag or painting their nails, or with women wearing a suit. And let kids pick the tertiary education that matches their skills and ambitions. Men can be hair dressers, nurses, stylists. Women can be truck drivers, welders, in the military. Then we can all be happy :).

As my teen has been riding me lately about my slip ups relating to Sam Smith, I decided to look at videos that I might one day send to her about validation etc.

I came across this one from Rose of D. And it was interesting to see it from a transwoman’s perspective. Particularly about including NB under the trans Umbrella.

"because stupidity is intersectional"

Makes me laugh every time.

It really does!

Just popping in to post this link:

Non-binary is the new “not like other girls,” and it’s deeply rooted in misogyny

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190813095741/medium.com/@marykatefain/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny-7a7e5ec539ba" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20190813095741/medium.com/@marykatefain/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny-7a7e5ec539ba

Some people are both

dim and confused.
Finished that for you.

Link not working sadly.

However my early teen told me that was why so many girls are declaring themselves non-binary. Too much pressure to fit a stereotype that girls choose to escape. Who can blame them for not fighting the tide? They are kids. Adults declaring themselves NB... well that is different.

Try this link Winesalot.
4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/

Thanks OldCrone. I realise now, that I have read this previously.

It really struck home though that the three women told the fourth friend that they were hateful for not understanding. This was exactly the tone that my daughter took with me yesterday. If I try to explain that I am optimistic and if we all pull together and fought the societal tightening of stereotypes we could enact change because you know, us parents do know a bit about it. And it would be better than taking a pessimistic view of 'it can't be changed therefore I must change and make everyone treat me as 'them/they' '.

However, as a teen, she believes that everything I believe is outdated tosh and that special category of non-binary is alleviating this traumatic pain. I did point out that for a goodly some older NBs, there was also more than a tad of narcissism driving it. That for some, they thrived on the fact someone has to stop and pay extra attention to fit they/them around their sentence to make them the centre of the conversation. She felt that I was being very 'unkind' .

I was referring to the ridiculous analogy that people are male or female, in the same way they're either black or white. Some people are both black and white. Or neither, asian. Asian and black. White and asian.
And intersex conditions do exist also.

And people with intersex conditions are not a third sex, or neither sex. They are people who have a disorder of sex development.

Everyone is "non binary". No one is a walking cartoon stereotype.

Posting this before I actually read all the thread so apologies if it's already covered.

At risk of sounding like a bit of a dick, I think the fact the GC position dismisses the NB concept as cobblers means there's little attempt to take apart the language and see what the hell they're actually talking about.

The NB labell is chosen by people who do not have access to the language they need to truthfully express their understanding of themselves within the dominant narrative framework they have been taught is true. They cannot describe as cis, because, like every woman here, they do not identify with the social construction of womanhood. They cannot describe as trans, because they do not identify with the social construction of manhood. What are they left with?

They lack the language to spell this out, but the binary they're truly rejecting isn't the sex binary. It's the cis/trans binary.

It becomes a lot clearer - as so much of the waffling bollocks spouted by the woke does - if you add -ed to the end of the word "gender" wherever you come across it.

It would be a fair compromise if The Other Side were prepared to accept that the number of people to whom the label 'cis' might realistically apply is vanishingly small. As others have said, we are all non-binary. But we all know how well that statement goes down.

Obviously there is an element of NB just being the most recent version of the Not Like the Other Girls trope - which many of us also went through when we were teenagers because, well, that's teenagers and patriarchy for you. But it is, I think, largely a problem of access to language.

The NB labell is chosen by people who do not have access to the language they need to truthfully express their understanding of themselves within the dominant narrative framework they have been taught is true.

I don't think that is always the case but it certainly goes some way to explaining the number of teenage girls identifying as NB.

Well, yes, there will be exceptions. But they have to couch their experiences in genderist language lest they inadvertently commit social suicide, which as I recall is a pretty big deal when you're in your teens.

I was referring to the ridiculous analogy that people are male or female, in the same way they're either black or white. Some people are both black and white. Or neither, asian. Asian and black. White and asian.
And intersex conditions do exist also.

Exactly. I'm not sure if it was my point you were referring to, as you didn't actually quote anything, but if so it looks like you misunderstood.
Saying "there is a binary but I'm not part of it" is not a way you'd describe your race. Why is it therefore ok to describe your gender identity by referring to a binary when it's offensive to believe there are only two genders?

Gender, unlike biological sex, is a social construct. In some cultures there are more than two genders. Gender just encompasses a bunch of stereotypes and roles.

They cannot describe as cis, because, like every woman here, they do not identify with the social construction of womanhood. They cannot describe as trans, because they do not identify with the social construction of manhood. What are they left with?

They lack the language to spell this out, but the binary they're truly rejecting isn't the sex binary. It's the cis/trans binary.

@TyroSaysMeow This is a really interesting point. But because sex and gender are so conflated in trans ideology I would say they actually are trying to reject both the sex binary and the cis/trans binary because they don't have an adequate understanding of the distinction. Maybe that was your point already when you said they lacked the language.

In some cultures there are more than two genders.

Every time I've read about this, these 'third' genders always seem to be a way for a person of a specific sex to undertake the gender role of the opposite sex. It's not a 'free' thing.

It might be males who are allowed to be masculine, or females allowed to pretend to be the son of a family in order to be allowed to work.

So-called third genders just seem to be another interpretation of the same sexist bullshit - saying women should be like this and men should be like that but if you follow these special rules then you can be this other, separate category. Very much like the TRA line, really.

They lack the language to spell this out, but the binary they're truly rejecting isn't the sex binary. It's the cis/trans binary.

I think for many teenage girls it is the sex binary too. Most teenage girls feel huge discomfort with their changing body and would rather go back to the sexless body of their childhood.
There’s nothing good about periods.