Non-binary from a gender critical perspective

[Babolat]

How is non-binary understood from a gender critical perspective? I’m getting tied up in knots trying to get my head round it.

The Private Eye article on Edward Lord is worth reading:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3610416-Private-Eye-article-on-Edward-Lord-and-CofL-consultation#prettyPhoto

I have never felt totally comfortable in the spaces or boxes into which being assigned male at birth automatically put me. I pretty much always knew I was queer, but didn’t find any particular connection with gay me

Do you think, or know, if he is Asperger's ?

It's an example of a useful concept being applied in a completely nonsensical way.

I think (though my understanding is pretty shaky!) that the idea of the "binary" was originally developed by French (existentialist?) philosophers. A "binary" system was a system of hierarchical relations between two different things - where one (inferior) thing was defined by not being the other (superior) thing.

Perhaps an example might be "forceful/yielding" where forceful is seen as superior, and yielding as inferior.

So "smashing the binary" in this context wasn't about smashing differences - rather, it was about smashing the hierarchy, ie accepting that the yielding is as valuable (albeit different) as the strong.

In the context of gender stereotypes, smashing the binary was supposed to be about promoting the idea that all ways of being - whether stereotypically masculine or feminine - are of equal value.

How in earth this has got twisted into the idea of individuals being "non-binary" I have no idea. The people who claim to be "non-binary" certainly aren't smashing the binary (ie, the hierarchical system of traditionally male and female stereotypes). If anything they are enforcing it.

They're fundamentally saying they don't conform to stereotypes - good for them, who does? But instead of inferring from this that the stereotypes are a load of crap, they're claiming that they are special people.

It's just self-important nonsense, ridiculous word salad.

How in earth this has got twisted into the idea of individuals being "non-binary" I have no idea. The people who claim to be "non-binary" certainly aren't smashing the binary (ie, the hierarchical system of traditionally male and female stereotypes). If anything they are enforcing it.

The consequences of those who want to 'smash the binary' will be to remove/undermine sex-based Safeguarding.

Many of the NB activists have been doing this for some time.

I've been thinking of the increasing genders as being little more than the equivalent of a Buzzfeed quiz.

I think you're onto something there. Or a quiz in a women's magazine 20 years ago. What's your romance style?

The consequences of those who want to 'smash the binary' will be to remove/undermine sex-based Safeguarding.

Many of the NB activists have been doing this for some time.

Queer theory. Sheila Jeffries in "Unpacking Queer Politics" opened my eyes to this. I highly recommend it for anyone who wants to look at queer theory critically.

Sam Smith was on telly saying "trans and non binary folk are better in bed than cis people"

desperate

think non-binary is also a massive reaction to the past 15-odd years, when hyperfeminine and hypermasculine grooming standards have been absolutely huge (Fake lashes and blow-dries for girls!

There are plenty of hyperfeminine looking young girls claiming to be "non binary" though. It's a silly, meaningless label that everyone interprets how they want to.

Everyone is "non binary".

Any attempt to discuss the dominance/submission paradigm will get you labeled a man hating Feminist.

There are plenty of hyperfeminine looking young girls claiming to be "non binary" though. It's a silly, meaningless label that everyone interprets how they want to

Well sure, because there's a whole pile of individuals out there reacting to/absorbing the trend in their different ways. Those young, feminine female "enbies" are just reinventing the wheel, but they may well come from families that truly believe that girls should be passive, gentle, and unambitious.

I agree it's irritating to be lectured on the benefits of not submitting to a binary that many of us freed ourselves from decades ago, but to me they are far less problematic than the older enbys who should know better.

So many great analyses here. Can anyone help me?

I find it hard to talk about in person without getting overly passionate.

I had a friend tell me her boyfriend has come out as nb and she's now call him "they". I just stayed silent. How can I explain that I refuse to play along and that I think it's all a bunch of harmful cobblers without alienating her?

There is also no such thing as an innate gender or “feeling” like a gender. That’s just matching yourself to a construct much the same way you’d take a personality quiz.

Like astrology, but for narcissists who have an unhealthy (and often fetishistic) obsession with sex based stereotypes.

Why governments or organizations are taking any of this nonsense seriously is the real question.

If I felt I needed to express my feelings I'd simply say that almost no male people adhere 100% to all male sex stereotypes and almost no female people adhere 100% to all female sex stereotypes which means that nearly all of us are non-binary to some extent.

If I wanted to make a pointed remark I'd say the major difference is that nearly all of us don't feel the need to make a song and dance over it.

(Possibly irrelevant side note: I once wore a white sundress to a Sisters of Mercy gig sometime around 1996ish. You should have seen the looks of disgust at my non-conformity from the non-conformists 😂. It shows how strong social pressures are to stick to your tribe)

I was so tempted to wear a Cheer Up Emo Kid tshirt to see the wankiest band that ever wanked in the 2000s but sadly was unable to procure one in time. Probably a good thing as their equally wanky fans might have punched me.

Also a white sundress is objectively a terrible idea - you'll never get the spilled snakebite out of that.

Non-binary = I'll avoid trying to make things better for women because I'm not a woman so I only need to make things better for me.

Sam Smith was on telly saying "trans and non binary folk are better in bed than cis people"

This is the self soothing mechanism of a deeply insecure person and honestly a bit pathetic.

Doughnut

I’d be tempted to roll my eyes and giggle about it with her in a gentle way if I didn’t want to lose the friendship. How old is he?

Non-binary = I'll avoid trying to make things better for women because I'm not a woman so I only need to make things better for me.

Yup.

And also

Well, women are equal now, aren't they. What are they complaining about?

I had a friend tell me her boyfriend has come out as nb and she's now call him "they". I just stayed silent. How can I explain that I refuse to play along and that I think it's all a bunch of harmful cobblers without alienating her?

Asking questions is often better.
Personal pronouns in English indicate sex & whether singular or plural for the majority of people.

Sex based pronouns are not just for humans eg "My cat Sam is desparate for attention. She has been getting on my pip this morning"
Might my cat Sam have a gender identity? I know she is a female cat. So does the vet who spayed her.

Why should some people compel others to change the way pronouns are used?

Are there possible implications? Some people who identify as 'non-binary' want other people to stop using accurate singular sex-based pronouns when they are absent & to use instead (the usually plural) they/them. What of people who also identify as 'non-binary' & want other people to use new/made up pronouns eg fae/faers, xe/xem, per/per, zie/hir etc? Which groups of people are impacted most /excluded by such language demands?

How do we keep track of which pronouns some people are wanting other people to use about them? How much checking do we have to do to ensure compliance?

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

@nauticant I love it! Good suggestions.

@Ikeasucks he is mid 30s. Old enough to know better. Quiet geeky guy, I think he thinks he's found the answer to why he struggles socially. I couldn't laugh, my friend was being so sincere and saying how hard it was for him as his boss wasn't helping. I struggle because it makes me angry. I work in a male dominated industry and have issues all the time because of 'gender' i.e. sexism. Imagine if I expected my boss to help me! My boss is the worst one!

@R0wantrees thanks, I'm with you all the way. What I struggle with is how to put this in laid-back pub talk that keeps things friendly and can get fence-sitters on side. I have written an academic paper on gender identity so I can debate it until I'm blue in the face, but my problem is that when I start, people begin to back away slowly from the crazy lady!

Really good point about asking questions though. Gently asking questions reveals the nonsensical nature of the ideology. Maybe if I just ask questions and let them tie themselves in knots I won't need to state anything too controversial.

Gently asking questions reveals the nonsensical nature of the ideology. Maybe if I just ask questions and let them tie themselves in knots I won't need to state anything too controversial.

Asking questions & giving space is effective for demonstrating the nonsensical nature as well as enjoying the pub (whenever next we might do so)

The trouble with non-binary identities, from a strictly logical point of view, is that they completely undermine a central argument of trans activists, which is that trans people are biologically different. Typically you'll hear trans advocates saying that trans women have brains that are more like women's brains than men's. They'll say that something happened during pregnancy - the baby will have received an extra dose of oestrogen instead of testosterone or something. Even though they have a male body, they are "really" female inside.

But non-binary identities make a nonsense of all that. The whole "woman in a man's body" idea is premised on a belief in the gender (or sex) binary. Once you accept that "non-binary identities are valid", then you agree that trans identities are meaningless.

he is mid 30s. Old enough to know better. Quiet geeky guy, I think he thinks he's found the answer to why he struggles socially. I couldn't laugh, my friend was being so sincere and saying how hard it was for him as his boss wasn't helping

I'd be asking questions (no doubt at times with raised eyebrow or furrowed brow)

What specific help is this chap wanting from his boss that hasn't been provided? Is what he's asking within the gift of a manager eg presumably to convince colleagues that he is neither (both?) male or female? What implications could there be for the company & other employees? What if more (all?) employees sought particular accomodations due to their asserted "gender identities"?

Unpicking it with your friend initially might prove more useful (& protective) than extrapolating outwards.

I am so confused about what my gender is!

How can I really know until I've had the definitive list of activities, clothes, hairstyles, attitudes, favourite colours, etc etc etc that apply to all men and women?

FFS...