Do you find the term/meme 'Karen' an insult?

[VladmirsPoutine]

This is a discussion I have recently read a few opinion pieces about.

Do you think it's indeed classist, racist and misogynistic to describe certain women as a Karen?

What's concerning is that the prevalence of this stereotype would suggest that it's an extremely common occurrence.
I don't think that is a legitimate conclusion to draw from the prevalence of a stereotype. The fact that there have been persistent stereotypes of, for example, black people or Jewish people does not mean that these were drawn from a large sample of black or Jewish people. In fact it can say more about the dominant group and their success in perpetuating the stereotype, and how willing others are to believe the worst of a certain group.

People don't like assertive women, we know this and have known it for decades. I've seen my dad complaining to managers numerous times and he's very assertive, bordering on aggressive. But he doesn't get called names, people respect him for it. If my mum behaved like that she'd be called a bitch, a cow or a nasty woman.

Actually, I wholeheartedly agree with you that a lot of stereotypes are innacurate and unfair. The the 'lazy husband' (more men than women work full time!), the 'helpless woman' etc. All damaging and untruthful stereotypes.

However, I'm inclined to say that (certainly from my own experience) there are plenty of 'Karens' out there and they really do love complaining to the manager.

My BIL likes to complain to the manager if he thinks he's not getting what he paid for, IceCreamWaffles. He's a white, middle aged, highly educated medical consultant. What fun stereotype name do you have for him?

Icecreamwaffles you've proved nothing there! There are lazy men - when that comment is used it usually refers to what they do when not working for a start, and helpless women - a hell of a lot more than there are women called Karen who like complaining. So your judgement makes no sense.

However, I'm inclined to say that (certainly from my own experience) there are plenty of 'Karens' out there and they really do love complaining to the manager

Lazy, stupid, stereotyping.

My husband does not put up with poor service and complains about it. He's a white , late middle aged, solicitor. As a litigator specialising in construction work it is part of his job basically. My brother-in- law is even more vociferous. He's slightly older and a highly skilled engineer. My sisters-in- law (one of whom is called Karen) take no nonsense from anyone either.

Bet you have no names to call my husband and brother-in- law. I suppose there is always "gammon" but personally I treat anyone using it and "Karen" with the contempt they deserve.

twoHopes
If someone is bordering on aggressive then I'd consider them to be a bully.

Being assertive doesn't mean bordering on aggressive and I think it's a sad sign that some in society would deem that acceptable conduct in men because you're right in saying bordering on aggressive behaviour from a woman wouldn't be accepted.

Singasonga
Nobody has said anyone shouldn't complain to a manager if there's something wrong. Men and women who do that reasonable are absolutely fine.

There's a certain type of arsehole who use complaining to the manager as a pathetic attempt to engage in power play, usually with service staff and shop assistants they consider to be little plebs to them, and it's good that behaviour is called out. It doesn't need to be through a silly 'karen' name, but it's unpleasant behaviour that should be rightly ridiculed from men and women.

If someone is bordering on aggressive then I'd consider them to be a bully

I agree with you. He is a bully but he gets away with it because he's a tall, older, authoritative-sounding bloke. I don't excuse any of this behaviour, I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of an arsey customer so I'm never going to be one of those people. It's just frustrating that men and women are held to such different standards.

I'm not sure that the issue is that men and women are being held to to different standards. Men who are rude and aggressive like that are discussed by workers, and they are called names. No one likes them.

You are less likely to see them in certain types of retail settings though, like supermarkets, mainly because shopping in those setting is substantially dominated by women.

The different standards is the assumption that any, middle aged, white woman who complains about poor service is a "Karen"

A "Karen" isn't even aggressive- it's the simple act of complaining, which might or might not be justified, which triggers the labelling.

In some ways it's actually a very useful term.

I have decided that anyone who uses the term to make a point or posts a "Karen" meme or who talks about "typical Karen behaviour" or "typical Karen look" is just too stupid and lazy for me to waste any time on what they have to say.

I appreciate that in itself might be stereotyping but I think it has more justification than the calling out of "Karens,"

TwoHopes
I agree with the different standards. It's awful that a man behaving that was is excused by some people.

I think you're right Goosefoot

DidoLamenting
This is where I think usage differs. I've never seen Karen / can I talk to the manager haircut be used for any woman who speaks up about poor service. I've only ever heard it used to describe a certain group of women who seek to power play with retail/service staff, throw their weight around when they're being unreasonable. Anything that isn't them getting their own way is enough for them to huff and puff about apparently poor service because they're the big important customer who is always right (anecdotally a similar behaviour and attitude is exhibited by people who come to parents' evenings, demand free private tuition for the child who isn't working in class and then resort to informing teachers that "I pay your wages").

Eg. "Karen" is trying to do an exchange on an item with no tags and no receipts. Shop assistant says this isn't possible because it's not in the refund policy and the item isn't faulty. "Karen" starts making a scene, demands to speak to a manager, meanwhile a queue of other shoppers builds and all feel sorry for the poor shop assistant having to deal with such an arsehole.

it's good that behaviour is called out.
It's not calling out the behaviour if you only use a woman of a certain age and class to personify it. It's lazy stereotyping, as has been pointed out countless times.
And if you only happen to notice that behaviour when it's from that particular age and class of woman then maybe that says more about you than it does them.

I've never come across "Karen" except on MN.

Does the scenario you describe happen often in real life? Certainly does not in mine and certainly not the case that it is a certain group of women who seek to power play.

I am extremely sceptical that only a certain group of women who seek to power play with retail/service staff, throw their weight around when they're being unreasonable behave like this.

In fact "extremely sceptical" might well be substituted for , I don't believe this behaviour is limited to a certain group.

Which comes back to "Karen" being used by lazy, stupid people and/or the possibility that any woman in the "Karen" demographic is going to be labelled a "Karen" even if her complaint is justified.

And if you only happen to notice that behaviour when it's from that particular age and class of woman then maybe that says more about you than it does them

Totally agree Floisme

It's bias confirmation at its finest.

I've worked in bars, restaurants and cafes and can't say I've experienced a disproportionate number of white, middle aged women complainers. Arseholes come in all shapes and sizes (and sexes, ages and ethnicities). The disproportionate skew may be that women make up the vast proportion of consumer purchasing decisions (especially household purchasing) so you're more likely to come across female customers in retail. And probably even more likely to come across middle aged female customers as they're buying for an entire family.

The different standards is the assumption that any, middle aged, white woman who complains about poor service is a "Karen"

Well it wouldn't make much sense to call a middle aged white man a Karen. We'd call him a wanker, probably.

People will always generalise about groups of people if they perceive any kind of pattern, even if they don't apply a word to it specifically. If no one had come up with that particular term, you would still get supermarket workers etc who recognised the sort of customer it indicates and they'd still communicate with each other about it in some way.

It's like couponers, - it's really dominated by women.

I was trying to think when I'd last complained about something like that and then remembered having a discussion re an establishment's move to mixed sex toilets. I suppose I managed to be a terf and a Karen simultaneously

DidoLamenting
I haven't said I only notice that behaviour in only women.
I've said that much as I dislike the Karen phrase, I've never heard it used to refer to any woman who speaks up about poor service and have only heard it used to refer to a particular type of behaviour.

I dislike the behaviour in men and women, and sadly there's a minority of people who do throw their weight around to try and bully staff into giving them their own way.

twohopes

I think that's precisely what it is. Certain retail sectors, particularly food, are heavily skewed to women buyers.

In food service my experience was that men were probably marginally more likely to complain than women, but in either care they were likely to be professionals.

I don't think it is about complaining, not any more anyway. Wasn't there a tweet about the shadow minister for domestic violence being the "Karen minister", that for a zillion likes?
I've seen Karen memes about her divorcing and taking the children, and lots that just show groups of women with the kind of haircut favoured by a lot of women of a similar age, labelling them all Karen's. It's insidious and sexist.

Like what does this actually mean?

This thread has shown me that it's gone beyond a silly way of discussing a certain type of customer (how I've only heard it used) into a general insult used in a way I've not previously come across.

I find it offensive and it’s used to stamp on women who stand up for themselves or often others who are seen as weaker.

It’s to make sure they don’t say anything or assert themselves, particularly if they are middle aged.

These ‘stroppy’ women are often on my train home from work defending the teenagers getting pushed around or the man with the guide dog that no one will get up for.

Iggi999

It looks like they are using there in a similar way that people used to use "cougar'. Although I think they were portrayed as going after younger men, I'm not sure if that is implied here.

We used to have a word we used for the male equivalent of cougar, creepy men that went to bars to hit on younger women, though I can't remember what is was now.

Anyway, I think it's become generalised for a lot of people in a way similar to millennial, rather than just indicating a particular age group it now embodies a bunch of other, usually unflattering, characteristics.