Do you find the term/meme 'Karen' an insult?

[VladmirsPoutine]

This is a discussion I have recently read a few opinion pieces about.

Do you think it's indeed classist, racist and misogynistic to describe certain women as a Karen?

I see 'Karen' & actually 'Carol' too on lots of cat memes.
Usually with the cat threatening to kill them for being dressed in some hideous knitted outfit.
I actually know 3 Karens & 2 Carols as friends & colleagues & they're nice normal women!

I think it's sexist, ageist and classist and feel sorry for women I know who are called Karen. Most of them are lovely, and I think these memes are really awful.

www.theguardian.com/fashion/2020/apr/13/the-karen-meme-is-everywhere-and-it-has-become-mired-in-sexism?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3THkuKxRZv7yvyjIQI0pCw_HHuKopo2IjpZfVi64xvS9TeFMfoFTSKvOU#Echobox=1586795991

I don't find it insulting, but I do find it tiresome and another example of how something that has a meaning in the US has been adopted by the Anglosphere as a put down of people whose only resemblance to the original target is their race and sex.

For amusement, I like to wonder what dismissive memes today's 0-15 year olds will come up with for today's 20 & 30-somethings. Remember, it was the Baby Boomers who warned each other not to trust anyone over 30, so we've seen this story before...

I saw Stacey Solomon tweeting about 'Susan' and called her out on it. Had thought better of her until now.

@DaydreamingDay Stacey S gets a lot of abuse online about her appearance and parenting choices. They are mostly women so she has nicknamed them "the susans".

I'm not a fan of hers, just remember reading an interview with her. Doesn't excuse it but does explain a bit I think.

The Karen/Susan/insert Gen X name meme started as an offshoot from the "can I speak to the manager" haircut meme.

Women like that can be bloody awful but cashiers and waitresses don't get walked to their car or go home in pairs or call the police because of Karens. It's always terrifying men who stalk them on social media, wait around outside their workplace, stare at their name badge and use their name inappropriately (I disapprove of name badges!) or just shout at, threaten or rob.
No memes for them though.

You know what sticks with you after a long shift working with the public? Not some annoying entitled woman. Being terrified sticks with you. Being hurt sticks with you. Being sexually harassed sticks with you.
No memes for that though.

Tbh it's just another excuse to laugh at women. Take the heat out of any woman's anger, righteous or otherwise, by laughing at her. You don't dare laugh at angry men so let's laugh double-hard at the women. What are they going to do about it anyway? Ask bewildered questions about the scathing nature of memes?

Even if every American Karen was obnoxious and racist I still find it hard to believe those women are customer-facing staff's biggest issue. British Karens aren't even being accused of racism, just embarrassing mumsyness.

Actually even if the meme was started by the baristas and the cashiers, it's been amplified by the media executives, account managers and digital marketers.
The people who shout loudest about retail Karens are the equally entitled people behind them in the queue.

I saw a Karen insult the other day. The poster was annoyed that her mum had denied her access to normal painkillers growing up (and wanted her to use herbal remedies) and was therefore a 'Karen'. I found this so random. The woman in question could have done the opposite and still be called a Karen. To a Brit, it seems like an insult to describe any older woman who's assertive and needs to shut the hell up and get back into the kitchen. Horrible.

I think that the in the weird translation from the USA to the UK it's become incredibly classist (what a surprise).

Think about it, "Karens" in the meme shop in Asda or Tesco, never in Waitrose or M&S. They have low maintenance haircuts, which are clearly meant to signal working class. They have houses with inspirational words on the walls, not in shades of Farrow and Ball.

The memes may as well say "Karen's getting above her station again" because that's exactly what they're meant to portray - a woman who needs stamping back down in place.

Yes.

The memes may as well say "Karen's getting above her station again" because that's exactly what they're meant to portray - a woman who needs stamping back down in place.
Perfectly put MoltenLasagne.

It's the new 'uppity', except that lefty people feel safe using it too.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/14/social-distance-shaming-necessary-coronavirus

It's used at the end of this article, with a link to the urban dictionary definition, which makes it clear that it means a middle aged mother. Perhaps once upon a time it specifically meant a white woman berating a black woman, but there is no mention of race in the definition linked by the Guardian.

The implication is clear - it's fine to ignore somebody as long as they are a woman with children, and women, don't make a fuss, you don't want to be a 'Karen'.

Goosefoot
That's how I always understood the reference too.
It wasn't saying "get in your box because you're a woman so you should smile nicely and accept crap service" and more an observation that a particular group of people shared similar behaviour traits, usually throwing their weight around in a bid to get what they want.

I don't like the expression 'karen', but a few months ago I saw a textbook Karen situation where a middle aged woman, similar hair cut to the memes had opened a pack of tights but wanted to return them along with other items missing tags. The poor 18-20 year old shop assistant very politely and reasonably said it's not possible. The customer argued and argued and demanded to see managers, meanwhile the queue was building full of people smiling at the assistants and rolling their eyes at the customer. Everything about the interaction was horrible and snacked of 'you are a lowly shop assistant and I have power as the customer'.

Funnily enough, whilst that customer was waiting for the manager, every customer in the queue made a point of praising the shop assistants for their impeccable handling of the situation, wonderful service and telling them they didn't have to apologise for the wait as it was absolutely not their fault. I loved the solidarity.

Even if we were to set aside this neantherthal view of older people, why is there no male equivalent?

I always found the male population that was rude in shops in a similar way tended to be professional men, and less attached to a particular age group. The word used for them was typically some variation on "prick".

ooooh this convo I can get on board with!!

Yes. Not only in itself, but also about the sheer hypocrisy that is often involved in the use of it.

It is often said by people to dismiss an entire group of people (white, middle-aged women often) when those people at the same time pretend to fight the exclusion of others, and supposedly stand for equality, etc.

Who is the most tedious person at work? Karen, of course! Can't wait for a world with no Karens!

But a few months ago I saw a textbook Karen situation where a middle aged woman, similar hair cut to the memes

No you didn't. You saw one particular person behaving rudely and decided it fitted with a stupid meme invented to assist the hard of thinking taxing their limited brain power.

It is often said by people to dismiss an entire group of people (white, middle-aged women often) when those people at the same time pretend to fight the exclusion of others, and supposedly stand for equality, etc.

That hits the nail on the head.

Watched the Mash Report last night and the wokey blokey Nish seems to really hate women of a certain demographic, really laying into the Karen's and Your Mum on Facebook. It was because of this thread I sat up and noticed just how misogynist it all was.

How can you be for inclusiveness and equal rights (as the Mash Report pretends to be) when you are derisery and sneering contempt at a whole section of society, ie middle aged women.

Nish Kumar- now that is interesting. He took over from Miles Jupp on the News Quiz. Several posters on Radio Addicts said they didn't like him because he is a smug git. They were accused by another poster of being racist.

MightyMike
Nish Kumar is anything but funny, one of the new breed of so called comedians.
Merrymouse gave an excellent link to the "Karen" effect, where there wasw a dictionary definition, or rather a lot of definitions.
They were indeed misogynistic, ageist and also racist, because if you think us middle aged men get it bad, then middle aged, white women get it worse.

I was one of very few posters on an AIBU thread a couple of years ago who said "Your Mum" jokes were not funny, rather they were stupid, lazy, sexist and ageist.

There aren't "your Dad" jokes beyond possibly "Dad dancing" and even there it's sort of lost its viciousness- most people now think, well why not enjoy dancing even if you're terrible at it.

Women like that can be bloody awful but cashiers and waitresses don't get walked to their car or go home in pairs or call the police because of Karens. It's always terrifying men who stalk them on social media, wait around outside their workplace, stare at their name badge and use their name inappropriately (I disapprove of name badges!) or just shout at, threaten or rob. No memes for them though.

You know what sticks with you after a long shift working with the public? Not some annoying entitled woman. Being terrified sticks with you. Being hurt sticks with you. Being sexually harassed sticks with you. No memes for that though.

Whilst I agree that stalking women is undoubtedly worse, I don't think we can so readily dismiss female bullying and intimidation, especially when the power dynamic portrayed here is typically that of a white, privileged, middle class woman bullying either a younger woman or somebody of a lower socio-economic status in a service role - perhaps a BAME individual. Dismissing this is a bit like dismissing sexual assault because it's not as bad as murder or rape.

They're quite different scenarios in my mind. Being stared at on the way to the car is horrible, but on the flipside there is no question as to who is the perpetrator there. However, when 'Karen' complains to the manager the dynamic is different. The customer is always right, and we have a confident woman going up against a victim who is likely younger and may feel intimidated or fear for her job, hence very possibly being reticent to defend herself and maybe accepting the blame - what has Karen to lose from this apart from some misplaced pride?

I can imagine the manager siding with Karen in many instances. We've all seen it before. Waitresses are easily replaced but an angry customer can seriously damage a business's reputation. People like Karen know how to complain and they do it often. It's unreasonable to use the name 'Karen', but we all know somebody like her. Once she starts making a scene the manager will want to placate her, and he certainly won't want the fallout of a slew of bad reviews on Trustpilot/JustEat/Google reviews etc. If it doesn't affect the business's reputation then the manager still likely has to explain the situation to the owners.

Sadly, after an encounter with Karen, the waitress may not be walked to her car. She'll walk to it on her own after having been fired and she won't be coming back. Her terror won't be of somebody using her name inappropriately, it'll be of how to keep a roof over her head and feed her children.

What's concerning is that the prevalence of this stereotype would suggest that it's an extremely common occurrence.