Do you find the term/meme 'Karen' an insult?

[VladmirsPoutine]

This is a discussion I have recently read a few opinion pieces about.

Do you think it's indeed classist, racist and misogynistic to describe certain women as a Karen?

The only time I've been called Karen is on MN.

Yes 'Gammon' was an insult used to shut down older white men who had right-wing opinions. It wasn't aimed at all older white men, and it isn't a common real name for white men. At least I've never met anyone called Gammon.

Errrm yeh. Just like if any left wing remainiac who disagreed with a white male brexiteer, would call them a gammon!! Guess your one of them

I'm a moderate right wing remainer. The term "gammon" is as unacceptable as "Karen".

Had a chat with a teenage DD this eve as she asked me why people were saying 'ok Karen' on TikTok. She read a few pages from this thread and it opened her eyes!

The thing is, the only people I've ever seen demonstrating the 'Karen' behaviour as described are men. I've worked in customer facing roles and can only remember men being complaining arseholes. Thinking the world revolves around them and what they want? Check.

Am I missing something?

Yes you are missing something. Claiming that it is only ever men who complain without justification is no better than using the "Karen" meme to vilify a certain demographic of women.

People are entitled to complain if faced with poor service.

Some people can be obnoxious.

I'm afraid I simply don't believe that it is only men who behave in that way any more than I believe it is only women of a certain age and class. I have worked in what could be described as a "customer facing role" my whole working life.

I didn't claim it's only men (nor that people shouldn't be entitled to complain if faced with poor service). I'm saying that in my experience, I've only seen so-called 'Karen' behaviour in men which other people (outside MN/in general) seem to be saying is stereotypical to a certain type of woman. I've met loads of arseholes, male and female. But 'Karen' is not just an arsehole - isn't that the point of it being a meme?

My point is that I don't recognise 'Karen' as even a stereotype. It makes no sense to me hence me wondering if I'm missing the joke as there seems to be no point to it other than lazy sexism.

It was created as an insult, it is used as an insult, so it is widely understood to be an insult.

I've worked in customer facing roles and can only remember men being complaining arseholes

This is what you wrote.

I don't believe that only men are "complaining arseholes". I am very sceptical that whatever your work is that you have only ever seen men behaving like that. That strikes as confirmation bias and just as much perpetuating a stereotype as the Karen meme.

TehBewilderness

It was created as an insult, it is used as an insult, so it is widely understood to be an insult

Exactly. I'm not sure why it seems to be so difficult for some posters to understand that.

Ive seen justification of the karen meme as saying that you speaking out as a middle aged ,middle class white feminist (the ultimate insult from the yoof and woke bloke brigade), means by default you’re racist and while there is a clear white-centric element of some feminist circles, by using such language it becomes very difficult to respond without further labelling as being an exclusionary racist just by default of being a middle aged white woman.

I try my bloody hardest not to discriminate on the grounds of race, sex, sexuality, disability etc but when put on the back foot in any discussion of the karen meme I start to appear defensive and it comes across like an admission of guilt. I just ignore it as a fad now.

This is what you wrote.

Disingenuous.

DKL wrote a little more than that. And I understood perfectly.

In my experience people who behave like entitled arseholes are overwhelmingly not people called Karen who are middle aged. And like DKL I think it's laughable that this "Karen" thing has gained traction.

I have come across unpleasant people of all ages and sexes who have complained and moaned without justification. Suggesting this is a male trait , or that one has only ever seen men doing it is confirmation bias and not credible.

As an aside whilst I quoted it I really detest the word "arsehole" to describe anyone no matter how they behave.

That strikes as confirmation bias

Well yes, that's sort of implied by my saying that I can only remember men. Maybe it is. But it doesn't change the fact that I don't recognise whatever stereotype 'Karen' apparently fits. And even if I did suddenly remember a load of equivalent arseholes who were women the stereotype still wouldn't be a 'Karen' because I would have remembered that behaviour in both men and women.

It was created as an insult, it is used as an insult, so it is widely understood to be an insult

Well yes but there's loads of insults - why this one? Those justifying it try and claim that it's not the obvious sexism it seems so what is it? 'It's funny' doesn't really do it for me - why is it funny?

The stereotype is bollocks, so where does the humour come from?

it seems all we're left with is the obvious sexism.

And I can't stop thinking about the DVD piracy guy Knock-off Nigel when reading this thread. But that may not be relevant to the conversation

As an aside whilst I quoted it I really detest the word "arsehole" to describe anyone no matter how they behave.

It does have the benefit of being gender-neutral though!

Think of it this way. Suppose people started referring to middle-aged black men as 'Geoffrey'. Then whenever a middle-aged black man has an opinion in public they don't like, they shut him down with 'okay Geoffrey'. I'm sure the problem would be clear then

This!

Bruce was used by radio jocks for a while to designate a gay man and then they were called out on their homophobia by a celeb who named their son Bruce.
Do you remember when the c word and the b word were sexist insults and then the celebs made it into a generic insult except it is still using female as an insult.
That is what "Karen" is for. Just another was of saying you run like a girl or throw like a girl to insult people.
We are the default insult for the other half of the population.

Think of it this way. Suppose people started referring to middle-aged black men as 'Geoffrey'. Then whenever a middle-aged black man has an opinion in public they don't like, they shut him down with 'okay Geoffrey'. I'm sure the problem would be clear then

That's a very good way of explaining it. And I bet there wouldn't then be posters painstakingly explaining that whilst they don't like the term in their experience it is always/ most likely middle-aged aged black men who behave like "Geoffreys"

Think of it this way. Suppose people started referring to middle-aged black men as 'Geoffrey'. Then whenever a middle-aged black man has an opinion in public they don't like, they shut him down with 'okay Geoffrey'. I'm sure the problem would be clear then

Spot on. That's exactly how it's used.

After reading this thread "Karen" seems to be cropping up everywhere. Useful article by Sarah Vine.

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8499961/SARAH-VINE-Attacking-Karens-just-racism-name.html

Yes.

The meme used by men means 'how dare you have got too old for me to want to fuck?'

Used by women it means 'I want men to like me'.

I the other post I wrote about this saying I had to have a talk with my kids about this as I heard them all joking about Karen's because their friends were saying it on WhatsApp. I asked what they thought it meant - they said it's a word for a horrible girl. I said what are the names you know for horrible men? They didnt know any. I've seen white woke blokes using it for JKR recently several times on Facebook.
I've seen them use it for Halle Berry, Whoopee Goldberg... I saw one guy use it for Carrie Fisher. MY CARRIE FISHER!!!!!!

I've started calling it out because I'm sick of it. Katrina, Isis, sick of it.

If someone is a white racist woman or man I just call them that. That means I have to justify why I'm saying it too, I'm not just spouting shit. If I think someone is a black entitled man or woman I have to call them that - again I better be able to justify. Of I call people Karen with a smirk I can say it and get away with it. Correct use of language holds us accountable.

The Sarah Vine piece sums up my feelings.

Another phrase I've seen on Twitter to try to close down women (generally used by young TRAs) is "can I speak to the manager haircut" or "T*RF bangs" (fringe).

Easy to apply to white, middle aged women. Had it on the Mermaids feed, but magically didn't apply to Susie or Helen. Applied only to those women who disagreed with unicorn thinking.