The tide is stalled - is this why?

[NotAssigned]

Women and a few male allies have made amazing progress in the last few years.

However, while all the signs of the tide turning are there, it is not retreating down the beach.

I'm trying to work out why, because this ideology (TWAW) does not make any sense and yet it pervades political parties, institutions, corporates, the NHS and more.

Here are some possible ideas why. What do others think?

• People have trans-identifying friends who are decent people and just living their life and it would be disloyal to push back against TWAW ideology.

• Language has been hijacked (assigned at birth, pronouns in news reports, etc)

• Intersex conditions have been hijacked (many people think trans=intersex)

• The 'Born in the wrong body' narrative has gained a currency and acceptance due to media reporting of the idea.

• it's section 28 etc all over again.

I know there is nothing new here
I just think if we can distill why people are prepared to go along with this we might be more able to push back.
And I've had a glass of wine.

I’ve been asking myself what must be the internal conversations within the Labour Party about this. The evidence from the last election is that people reject identity politics and the leadership candidates have received so much push back in the last few weeks, I can’t help thinking what forces are at work which allows the gender cult to keep it firm grip despite all this pressure. Why doesn’t it budge? Why isn’t a fair discussion taking place when the majority of people would want and expect that.

I think it's that a lot of your average people on the street don't even really know there is a tide to be turned, because it's not actually coming up in their daily lives. If I weren't on MN, I don't think I'd be very clued-up either tbh.

I think a lot stems from people who have only known good people. Because if almost everyone is good and , being left wing / communist you believe that fundamental everyone is equal, then there isn't any problem for women is there?

I think a lot of it stems from the terminology. That change from transsexual to transgender has meant a lot more people who many would be shocked to see are calling themselves women are included in the umbrella term but your average Joe doesn't realise this.

It hasn't stalled, this is going to take YEARS, there will be times when nothing seems to be happening and other times with things fall into place.
Change when you are at the very bottom of the chain doesn't happen over night unfortunatly.

Because MPs think Twitter truly represents what people think. Hence the total shock for labour when they got their arse kicked at the last election.

Everything gets hijacked. Everyone who is vulnerable gets used as a human shield. Then the lies, the continual lying about everything.

You're right OP. It is amazing how people are caught in a glamour and can't (there's a fair bit of won't too) see any of it.

People are making trans more confused and complicated than it actually, part due to trying to untangle the confused and deliberately muddled language while in the process of trying to understand it, before concluding that it is actually nonsense. Many don’t have the brain cells or patience to work through that process.
Many are handmaidens and only interested in earning woke points and virtual signalling.

But fundamentally what people say and think are not anchored in reality or truth, it’s just words building on more words with layers of logical fallacies leading to incoherent confusion and circular logic.

Some people are arrogant and ignorant and lacking in critical thinking skills.

Most people aren't aware of how batshit crazy gender identity ideology is. Even many of the fervent and faithful gender disciples have no idea of the unsavoury links between Queer theory and pedophilia.

In general, human beings don't form their opinions through rational contemplation and research. Irrespective of their political leanings, people simply adopt whatever opinion is considered acceptable in their social circle. They think they are a good person, and the people around them - family and friends - are also good, therefore if most of them support 'trans rights' (whatever that means) then they should support it too. Unfortunately humans really are that simplistic in some respects.

It's also why if you question them or ask for serious explanations, they stumble and sputter and regurgitate some phrases they've heard or read. If a person genuinely understands their own position, then they are able to articulate clearly why they believe the things they do.

It's like the average churchgoer who parrots a few scriptures, prays and attends mass now and again. If you really quiz them on their beliefs they don't come across as particularly convincing.

People just don't spend much time contemplating their opinions. It's simply a matter of copying what those around them say and do.

I do think it come back in part to teenage rebellion.

Wanting to rebel against the norms of your parents

• class and social status ~ been done
• hair and clothes ~ been done
• racial mixing ~ been done
• drugs ~ been done
• lesbian and gay ~ been done
• trans and non binary ~ ooh, that's new .... lets try that

the youthful rebellion has been exploited by some old fashioned misogynists of a right wing persuasion

the more old folks like us tell our kids that identifying as a different style of person is daft, the better a rebellion it becomes

Yes this trans thing , in a way, is just like a cult or religion.

Most Human beings probably can’t cope with having to come up with a set of values or opinions on how to live their lives. Most aren’t independent or critical thinkers. So having an oven ready set of beliefs handed to them in the form of the trans cult plays to human nature’s susceptibility to succumb to religion/cults , I think.

In a way , is the trans thing, and identity politics not a new religion ? And is that linked to the decline of Christianity in the west?

Also, weaponisation of victimhood and Deliberate detachment from truths/reality. I remember this from someone’s comment

When victimhood is a currency, there are bound to be counterfeits.

3 of the biggest factors I would say are:

• The climate of fear that has been created (in workplaces, social groups, educational institutions etc) - people are afraid (and understandably so, given what has happened to some people) either of being labelled as "bigots" and "hateful" and losing friends/family members, of impact on their livelihood (jobs, bookings or sales), or in some cases also of appalling abuse and even physical violence.

• The brainwashing that has already been going on for a good while in schools, universities and organisations - a lot of people (especially younger ones) have already been well trained to go along with the TA lines, and that may not always be easy to reverse

• The explosion in young people identifying as trans, which means that whereas many people would have never known anyone trans-identified until quite recently, suddenly it seems almost everyone has some connection (family members, colleagues, friends, or the friends/family members of those contacts) who has come out as trans, and people are understandably reluctant to cause them pain, even if we can't accept the ideology.

Plus as others said above, simple lack of understanding of what the new gender ideology actually involves, and the (deliberately?) vague and confusing terminology that contributes to this (so that makes 4 really!).

It's like the average churchgoer who parrots a few scriptures, prays and attends mass now and again. If you really quiz them on their beliefs they don't come across as particularly convincing.

People "believe" that communion involves the wine actually becoming the blood of Christ. But they "know" it is still wine.

Also. People "believe" TWAW. But they know they aren't.

And WhenEver someone throws out the whatever ‘phobe’ and bigot accusations, we haven’t managed to come up with a good, concise, pithy response have we?

Appeal to logic, and truth, so far has not worked.

Soloula
I think a lot of it stems from the terminology. That change from transsexual to transgender has meant a lot more people who many would be shocked to see are calling themselves women are included in the umbrella term but your average Joe doesn't realise this

I completely agree with this, if you told your average person that transvestites were now being housed in women's prisons and competing in women's sports, people would think you're crazy.

I would add that the storyline "if you don't affirm a transperson's identity they will kill themselves" has been very affective. No one wants to believe they are complicit in making someone else suicidal. The suicide myth problem is 1 it's not true, 2 it's an abusers tactic, 3 it's enabled opportunists who have ulterior motives.

It will take a lot of undoing, especially when the entire liberal left has been completely captured by the storyline.

The tide may turn, but a lot of women will be harmed before it does. We're just grateful for small mercies at the moment.

Has anyone noticed how many transwomen give talks about themselves?. At a recent police LGBT conference funded by Aviva there were three transwomen speakers talking about their own "personal journey"
twitter.com/MetLGBTNetwork/status/1230141974130327554
The same individual spent time in schools talking to children about themselves when they were serving with the Essex force

Manipulating large groups of people (especially children) via 'talks' can be very easy. An emotive pitch with a personal slant, presenting carefully selected vulnerabilities and appealing to the audience's emotions / wishes to be kind make it very hard to be objective about what you're listening to. Asking any kind of critical question is almost impossible. Children of course are an easy target.
It's interesting how much of this is filtered through individual experiences - think of Lisa Nandy pissing off the electorate because she can't see past one gender confused child's distress to look at the reality of women's rights and sport being eradicated. So many schools and workplaces have sat their children and staff through an obligatory and emotionally manipulative "personal trans story" session.
I do wonder how much impact these sessions have had in suppressing people's critical faculties?

I don’t think this will turn from the grassroots. It needs to be done from the top, quietly.

My friend is trying to organise a small public meeting about Women's Rights and Free Speech, she is getting turned down by places because this subject is transphobic.

I saw a women's group advertised saying they wanted new members, all women welcome. One person checked you didn't have to be left wing. Then a man who identifies as a woman saw asked if transwomen were welcome "yes of course".
I am being a coward and don't want to ask publicly if women who don't believe it's possible to change sex are welcome.

I am feeling increasingly unwelcome in my town.

When I have discussed this with DP he just says, I don't understabd why you don't just say 'nope not having that' as that's what he does. I have explained that as women it's happening to us and we have no choice but to fight it but I think he embodies what people on the street think, 'utterly crazy, batshit, no way would that happen' - then it does happen unfortunately. It is going to take collateral damage I think to really shine a light on this because until then we are getting drowned out by screams of bigot.

Sorry that wasn't very helpful, just feeling a bit weird about the fact that stating facts is now considered hateful.

Telling me I am hateful for not colluding in nonsense is not endearing me to men who say they are women.

I know most here will have read this but i think it's appropriate to add to this thread.

The remarkable tactics of trans rights activates:

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkabllobbyistse-tactics-of-trans

Not sure that link works.
Hopefully this one will.
If not, it's James Kirkup Spectator The remarkable tactics of trans rights activists

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists

I don't think this will happen fast.

What we are seeing now is that the majority of the public, who were deliberately left out of the loop, are now reacting as they come to learn more. So, at least in the UK, it's no longer becoming just expected that decent people will all agree about this.

But the people who are very committed to it among progressives still aren't looking at it critically. I think this is unlikely to happen until we start to see things like detransitioners suing or exposure of the scientific fraud. This group is also very isolated from other viewpoints and tend to see "conservatives" as immoral.

And where it has infiltrated institutions and the law, there isn't much happening, because these things are slow and have a lot of inertia. The real question is how these were allowed to be so quickly co-opted n the first place. Partly it's because people have unwisely begun to believe that the quicker we can move on new social justice complaints the better, and the model of applying pressure to social elements who disagree, rather than discussing them, has been accepted as well. In academia there is at east a whole generation that doesn't have the background to actually do the work and think differently, and to some extent this is true of the wider society and the media. We are lacking people who can lay the ideas out clearly.

I'm really struggling to understand why grown ups who should know better, and I mean like all the Labour MPs who signed that pledge for example, are in favour of self ID. They aren't stupid, but is it really because they think it will win more votes? I just find it hard to believe that anyone could be so callous. Is it fear of the push back? I just can't understand why people, specifically women, who have access to information so they can't be excused by the "they're just being kind/ they're confused with LGB rights etc" get out clause, I can't understand why they'd be so cold and heartless as to listen to women tell them that this is dangerous for us, and to just ignore it.

People like that believe that those who disagree are bigots. And you don't compromise with bigots.