The tide is stalled - is this why?

[NotAssigned]

Women and a few male allies have made amazing progress in the last few years.

However, while all the signs of the tide turning are there, it is not retreating down the beach.

I'm trying to work out why, because this ideology (TWAW) does not make any sense and yet it pervades political parties, institutions, corporates, the NHS and more.

Here are some possible ideas why. What do others think?

• People have trans-identifying friends who are decent people and just living their life and it would be disloyal to push back against TWAW ideology.

• Language has been hijacked (assigned at birth, pronouns in news reports, etc)

• Intersex conditions have been hijacked (many people think trans=intersex)

• The 'Born in the wrong body' narrative has gained a currency and acceptance due to media reporting of the idea.

• it's section 28 etc all over again.

I know there is nothing new here
I just think if we can distill why people are prepared to go along with this we might be more able to push back.
And I've had a glass of wine.

I feel like it's getting worse because its become part of the 'ether' of things that people just take for granted. Saying that transwomen are men is just seen as needlessly mean and bigoted.

Meanwhile the social shaming that people receive for questioning the ideology keeps others in line.

A few years ago this was a lot more 'niche' and was mainly confined to college campuses; political parties and the LGBT community. Now it's become more mainstream and i can see that more and more of my real life pals have drank the kool aid.

With so few people willing to speak out the ones who do are attacked and it sends a message to others. At the end of the day people would rather be popular than moral/truthful.

The social shaming is escalating because it's the only way to keep people in line. Once people point out the emperor has no clothes the job is up...

^jig is up

There are a few at the top of the trans tree who are very, very rich and have rather too much power and influence globally.

They are the elite, and like Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot or any other evil tyrant from recent history, it could happen again.

It only takes one individual to be charismatic, narcissistic and corrupt enough to fuel their personal power, digital power and wealth.

Promoting a global, digital nanny state, destroying traditional national boundaries and destroying family structures.

All the while virtue signalling, looking after their own and covering their backs.

Hiding in plain sight as womanface.

From a global point of view, it is not benign.

Yes, I am way too obsessed.

there were three transwomen speakers talking about their own "personal journey"

There seems to be a great appeal in presenting people's lives in a narrative arc as a journey starting in pain, involving a transformation, and leading to them becoming released from the bounds of oppression, all at high octane emotion.

People like that believe that those who disagree are bigots. And you don't compromise with bigots.

I think this is a really important point. It's much more challenging to persuade/argue with someone you fundamentally disagree with than to just ignore them.

A large chunk of people (maybe most) see this as 'the left eating itself' - an argument between feminists and trans people. They don't see it as relevant to themselves or their lives. They therefore haven't questioned it much.

Other people - more of the lefty sort - have 'sunk costs' fallacy, cognitive bias, and live in social media bubbles where nobody questions the accepted narrative. This is why people get enormously upset and see disagreement as 'attack'.

The last thing is, as has been said before, that the reality is so batshit that nobody can really believe it. 'Nobody really believes TWAW, that can't be possible'. It's a lie so extravagant that everyone presumes its true. And the emperor must be clothed, if everyone else says so!

Of course there are a few people who have thought it all through carefully and have come to the conclusion that TWAW, and disagree that women need single sex spaces, or that sex is important. Some people will persist in disagreeing with me and my views - shocking but true!

nauticant, I think the feminist (I suppose radfem, tho I'm not well versed in feminist theory) view presents a much less palatable 'narrative'. It's far more enticing to hear a story of someone overcoming their problems and winning out than to hear someone say quite plainly - women get raped, have specific health problems, domestic violence is abhorrent, predators will abuse the law.

How do you spin that into an uplifting 'story'?

I think many people simply find it confusing. The TRAs are using a tactic of ‘personal stories’ - people connect with these more than abstract discussions. That’s why Lisa Nandy goes on endlessly about the trans child in her constituency, it has nothing to do with trans prisoners or anything else and she isn’t curious about why so many children are embarking on this path which was unknown not long ago. I think the detransitioners stories are powerful for this reason. Also interviewers asking some basic questions like Jo Swinson faced during the election and also Lisa Nandy today. The logical inconsistencies are only too plain.

I think this has been sold as "progressive" by institutions like Stonewall that are supposed to be solid. It wasn't questioned. Maybe everyone thought, "well, they must know what they're on about, they're the experts, they're paid to do this, and it isn't my place to question." Now, SO many people have already heavily invested in this, financially, reputation, time, energy, etc. Just think about all the corporations and groups that are signed up to the mantra, including in the media, schools, hospitals, government, police force, the shops.... How much money must have been spent on "consultancy." How many "stunning and brave" material/training propaganda investments have been made. How many "trans inclusion policies" have been written.
What are people to do, when one of the biggest coffee chains in the world is selling biscuits to support Mermaids, an organisation that promotes lifelong medicalisation of young people for which there is no long term evidence? You end up sounding paranoid when you explain this stuff.
I think we are now at the stage where people may start to ask questions a little bit more seriously, but I don't think we should underestimate the need for a LOT (and I mean a LOT) of powerful/influential people to save face if/when the house of cards finally collapses as acknowledge the ideology is built on... nothing. Those who have something to lose might get quite desperate (perhaps even cruel to those they feel might expose their own foolishness in going along with something so nonsensical).
I've a feeling this will get a bit worse again before it gets better...

Nobody would ever admit to being a bigot
and I'm not sure why anyone would be so rude to call someone a bigot.

It says more about the person who is saying it. Imo.

Aye, even though I strongly disagree with many TRAs I wouldn't call them bigots. Wouldn't even occur to me - it's just a conversation-stopping insult.

It hasn't stalled.
It simply hasn't peaked yet, hasn't hit critical mass.
You are an 'early adopter'. You realised what was going on and woke up. I don't know when you peaked, but regardless of whether it was a year ago, or five, or even ten, it might feel as though you've been immersed in it forever, and consequently it feels improbable that other people might not have yet realised what you have.

The truth is that it is hard to have a bird's eye perspective when you are in the trenches, and I think the reality is more that the majority are still blissfully unaware of the implications. The mass population is still way back behind you on the learning curve, and they will not have been exposed to the information that you have, yet.

But things are building, and the next wave of people are waking up to realise that 'be kind' is carte blanche to bullies and disaster for women.

When it reaches critical mass, there will be a tipping point, and it will tip very, very fast.

And then commences the clearing up. Fixing bad laws, making new policies, creating new protections, learning lessons, and all those things will fall to the principled - who will want to screw the lids on tight so that we don't easily make such stupid mistakes again.

I think Stonewall bear a lot of the responsibility. They have claimed the issue and people trust them.

Then again, the society we live in is horribly sexist; while less overt in some ways, in others far more than when I was young. Clothes for small children seem a lot more sex coded. My son was told he was a girl at school for wearing a red coat, not even pink, red. Similar massive differences in what is expected from adults. The stronger the sex stereotype boxes are, the more people can't get their heads around flattening the boxes and try to see themselves in the opposite box instead.

And we live in a a relatively affluent place. If you're busy worrying where your next meal is coming from, you don't have energy or resource to spend on trying to change your body to be like the other sex.

It's a lovely way for men to be aggressive towards women whilst being lauded for being socially progressive. What's not to love about that?

I think that a notable proportion of women who push the TRA agenda are (quite subconsciously) being compliant as a means of self protection. i.e. when confronted with potential violence capitulating can be quite effective. To say that you agree with a group that are threatening you can be a strategy to protect yourself from that group.

And then there is the whole cohort of vulnerable teenagers/young adults.

Mostly I think that people don't really know about it.

I think that one of the real challenges will be that as you say the language and logic is so contorted that most people won't be able to understand it - which makes it a difficult ideology to push into the mainstream.

And I really think that very very very few people actually think that transwomen are women. Because - you know - biology.

Nobody would ever admit to being a bigot and I'm not sure why anyone would be so rude to call someone a bigot. It says more about the person who is saying it. Imo.

But it happens ALL the time. People are called bigots, or racists, or anti-semites, or homophobes, because they disagree with some element of what has been designated as the correct narrative. Questioning affirmative action, or what language should be used, or immigration, or school programs about homosexuality, whether institutional childcare is good for toddlers, whatever.

It happens on these boards pretty frequently, and people find it really upsetting. I watched that video Trevor Phillips yesterday about race, and in it there is a man who describes being described as a racist for the first time at age 45 as being deeply upsetting. And it really is, many people have an almost physical reaction to it.

This is not a short term project, but a long term one. Institutional capture means that it will take at least a decade to un-do and un-ravel. The best that can be hoped for, at present, is holding off any amendment to the GRA to permit Self ID - and watching as the negative impacts are registered in other countries; and as the movement against the medicalisation of children gathers strength, which it is, and it will even further.

Sport is another area which will bring the whole ideology and its consequences into sharper focus. So far there has been little public awareness of any of these impacts/meanings/consequences - that was the precise goal of those pushing TRA ideology......but with time it will all become far clearer.

Yeah barracker

I also thin k that councils local government think ok we need to get trained on this stuff. Where can we get it

Oh right stonewall. They are respected let’s get them in so we can can get stonewall approved.

Job done
We don’t actually believe in their blah blah stuff but it’s government approved approved so we are good

Stonewall told us how to write our divers ty guidance. Government approved so we are good now

Schools do same stuff.

So they are all saying we need diversity training and up pops easy option and it’s government approved

I think that’s how it works

Why doesn’t it budge? Why isn’t a fair discussion taking place when the majority of people would want and expect that

Be patient - exposure will force debate. That the issue has now broken through into public consciousness is an important stage on the journey, and a very significant one. There has been a tremendous amount of energy and commitment expended to get this far......it has to be seen through.

A large chunk of people (maybe most) see this as 'the left eating itself' - an argument between feminists and trans people. They don't see it as relevant to themselves or their lives. They therefore haven't questioned it much.

I think this is exactly right. I've heard many, many people talk about this as a "fringe issue" that normal people don't care about. I don't agree that the tide is stalling though, the likes of Piers Morgan are shoving this issue straight into the mainstream right now. More and more people will start talking about this in the pubs and staff rooms and school playgrounds.

I don't think it has stalled at all...in fact I sense and see much movement at present...This 'thing' is not going to be over-turned over-night. it has been seeded and germinated in darkness so far......but the light is starting to break through. It will take time.

the likes of Piers Morgan are shoving this issue straight into the mainstream

I disagree that media figures are doing the pushing. It is us. It is the women/people here and elsewhere who have been absolutely committed to fighting this madness, that have brought it to public/media attention.

Yeah and i do see it shifting.

Year ago on here we were getting our post s deleted right left and centre.

Was not so many people on here. Same as in life

But now loads of people here and in real life people getting dead arsed with all this nonsense stuff that men can play in women’s sports and that nobody knows what sex a baby is at birth

People are pissed off with being thought that they are idiots and they have to believe such nonsense

Agree littlbrowndog. There are far fewer deletions on here at present - partly because people jump through hoops to say what they need to say but also because there is so much else out there in the media being written and said. It's everywhere so the power of the sad old monitors is significantly decreased.

I think lots of people are where I was, about 3 years ago.

A woman, seeing people as people. Accepting people as being the person standing in front of me. And at the same time, appreciating having single-sex facilities for women and girls, and robust safeguarding in place for children.

My trust and openness is now being abused by men shredding safeguarding measures, long put in place because of necessity and protection for women and children. And I can't quite comprehend why this is being accepted, cheered on - indeed, championed - by the powers that be: institutions of media, education, health, etc.

And mainstream politics, of course.