The tide is stalled - is this why?

[NotAssigned]

Women and a few male allies have made amazing progress in the last few years.

However, while all the signs of the tide turning are there, it is not retreating down the beach.

I'm trying to work out why, because this ideology (TWAW) does not make any sense and yet it pervades political parties, institutions, corporates, the NHS and more.

Here are some possible ideas why. What do others think?

• People have trans-identifying friends who are decent people and just living their life and it would be disloyal to push back against TWAW ideology.

• Language has been hijacked (assigned at birth, pronouns in news reports, etc)

• Intersex conditions have been hijacked (many people think trans=intersex)

• The 'Born in the wrong body' narrative has gained a currency and acceptance due to media reporting of the idea.

• it's section 28 etc all over again.

I know there is nothing new here
I just think if we can distill why people are prepared to go along with this we might be more able to push back.
And I've had a glass of wine.

I think the tide has stalled because there isn't a coherent alternative position.

this ideology (TWAW) does not make any sense and yet it pervades political parties, institutions, corporates, the NHS and more.

This is because the GRA has been law since 2004. I don't see what can be achieved with 'pushback' when something has been legal for 16 years?

The only real difference that could be made would be a campaign to repeal the GRA which is not on the agenda of any political party or a single MP.

I think the tide has stalled because there isn't a coherent alternative position

Inadvertently hilarious.....

Why BovaryX?

One side is very simple - TWAW, TMAM. End of.

The other side less so. Not all GC people think the GRA should be repealed. Some have no issues with TW who have undergone surgery and fully transitioned, some do. There isn't a solid position.

Because one side is totally incoherent and when the craven Labour politicos who pledge allegiance to this nonsense are questioned, they start babbling or swerve the question. Natal males in female prisons? Children given puberty blockers? Oxford feminist historians who require bodyguards? And PC Plod checking the thinking of innocent civilians whilst failing to investigate actual crimes It takes a cement reinforced echo chamber if you still can't grasp the problem...m

I didn’t listen but I gather Moral Maze tackled the word “homophobia” last night. I don’t like the phobia suffix because it’s a false description but i think it probably factors in. No one wants to seem phobic of anything.

I often say, I’m not commitment phobic, I just don’t want to commit. There’s a big difference.

Interesting. So my question to the OP, Bovary and anyone else is if you could sum up in one sentence what needs to be achieved, what would that be? I think it's quite a hard question to answer.

This sinister, secretive lobby has colonised significant chunks of the state sector and is a threat to freedom of speech and democracy and it is regards women and children as collateral damage in its determination to force profoundly unpopular policies on us all Time to resist.

Nothing has stalled.

It's all going one way way. And, as a PP said, the sunlight is revealing quite how deep the capture has been. And that's why it feels a little negative sometimes.

Every single day, sometimes twice a day, MSM produces a new article. More people are understanding the issues.

We can, at last, at long bloody last, start to ask questions. The mantra of #NoDebate doesn't just look daft, it's looking positively hackneyed.

Transactivists thought it was a good tactic. Feminists thought it was dangerous. Now it just looks utterly stupid, self-defeating and not something you should ever say in a democracy. Needless to say, it's never mentioned these days.

It's shifted to the, currently also falling out of fashion, you are debating our very existence. All it takes is for enough people to ask how, and that also looks ridiculous.

The key was getting to the point where you could ask the questions. We are there.

The rest will follow.

I also blame Coronation Street - if your only knowledge of transgender people is Hayley, then you won’t understand the issues relating to trans without surgery, AGP, predators abusing self ID etc

It was deliberate strategy by transactivists who were closely involved with the storyline.

2013 Guardian
'Voices from the trans community: 'There will always be prejudice'
It's more than 50 years since the UK's first trans person was outed in the press. So how do members of the community think life has changed for them since?'
(extract)
"Christine Burns is one of a generation who vividly remembers reading about Ashley in the papers when she was a young child. (Ashley appeared in a six-week special in the News of the World: "They were one of the very few who paid me and they behaved impeccably. I was very sad when the News of the World closed," says Ashley.) The existence of someone like her in the public eye was a great comfort for Burns. In the 90s, when she was chair of the Women's Supper Club of the local Conservative party association in Cheshire, she quietly joined Press for Change. Even then, the new activists dared not be openly trans. "The thing that held us back in the 1990s campaigning was that fear of being out," admits Burns. Eventually, she came out in 1995; she jokes that she realised she was more embarrassed to be a member of the Conservative party than openly transsexual.

Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press". In popular culture, the activists became more forthcoming in their attempts to increase popular understanding of trans issues. Although the arrival of trans character Hayley Cropper in Coronation Street in 1998 was one breakthrough, Julie Hesmondhalgh, who plays Cropper, is a non-transsexual woman. Some believe one sign that minority groups are not taken seriously is when characters in popular culture are not played by members of that group (from the Black and White Minstrels of the 60s and 70s to non-disabled actors taking disabled parts). "I can advise any casting directors that there are plenty of transsexual actresses," says a medical professional involved in transition treatments. More inspiring for many younger trans people was the victory of Nadia Almada in Big Brother in 2004. " (continues)
www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

One side is very simple - TWAW, TMAM. End of.

LOL. Yes. Similar to flat earthism. The Earth is 4,000 years old. End of.

Eppur si muove.

The other side less so. Not all GC people think the GRA should be repealed. Some have no issues with TW who have undergone surgery and fully transitioned, some do. There isn't a solid position

We start off with pausing Self ID.....then the rest can be-unpacked and examined in a more coherent, realistic and publicly visible way. It will take time, as well as test cases and negative impacts from other countries coming to light.

There is a whole ideology behind modern transgenderism, that didn't apply back in the days of the tiny handful of fully transitioned individuals - who went by the name of transsexuals. It has always been clear that this fairly recent radical ideology has not served this demographic of individuals well at all......and it is not serving the LGB movement well either. In fact it serves no-one well......not least of all the many children and young people caught up in it, with often devastating consequences. And of course, it runs absolutely counter to women's rights.

One side is very simple - TWAW, TMAM. End of

And that is its greatest vulnerability....which simply cannot be sustained forever.

The 'other side' is far more nuanced and realistic.......and is why the tide will eventually go out altogether.

Dysphoria needs to go back to being seen and treated as a mental health disorder, not as an immutable fact of being.

It's pretty funny that anyone would try to argue that their position being a meaningless soundbite means that it must be correct.

The problem is TheProdigalKittensReturn is legally they are right.

There is a whole ideology behind modern transgenderism, that didn't apply back in the days of the tiny handful of fully transitioned individuals - who went by the name of transsexuals. It has always been clear that this fairly recent radical ideology has not served this demographic of individuals well at all......and it is not serving the LGB movement well either.

Important thread illustrating the history of trans rights activism in the UK & challenges myths.

AngryAttackKittens wrote:
"I'm going to point every "but the nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated by the nasty transgender people" person to this thread from now on.

All the same elements we're seeing now were there in that old BBC roundtable from the 70s with the 4 transwomen, the politician, and the doctor. None of this is new."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

Sum up in one sentence what needs to be achieved:

Acknowledgement of the simple but fundamental scientific truth that humans can’t change sex. Everything stems from that simple truth.

The problem is TheProdigalKittensReturn is legally they are right

If you have a GRC, yes......and that should remain difficult to achieve.
and as the ideology is pushed back we'll see fewer and fewer young people caught up in it. We'll then be left with the AGP's - and that will quickly become apparent.

Males with AGP have GRC.

It's pretty funny that anyone would try to argue that their position being a meaningless soundbite means that it must be correct

It's also pretty funny that this poster seems tone deaf to the growing diversity of people opposed to the insidious advance of this sinister agenda. The grim, authoritarian antics of this lobby are making headline news almost every day. And every headline brings more opposition.

This is just a result of the erosion of freedom of speech. Once a movement establishes itself at the politically correct view point it’s impossible to win against bevause its impossible to argue against.

I'm going to point every "but the nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated by the nasty transgender people" person to this thread from now on

Yes, but realistic goals have to be set to begin with.....and then the ideology and all of the stuff that motivates it then examined.
If you look at at how big this 'thing' has become you could easily feel overwhelmed......Immediate first steps to create pause and to give time for further reflection and examination are going to be required.

Once a movement establishes itself at the politically correct view point it’s impossible to win against because its impossible to argue against

What tends to happen is that PC viewpoints start to unravel and they come to be looked upon as quirks of history. It will take both time and effort to achieve.

Males with AGP have GRC

I'm sure......

How do you think this needs to be tackled then? What are your achievable targets?

This is just a result of the erosion of freedom of speech. Once a movement establishes itself at the politically correct view point it’s impossible to win against bevause its impossible to argue against

True. But this is being challenged. In the courts, in the newspapers, in the academy. The judge in Harry Miller's case cited the Stasi and the Gestapo as comparisons with the police. There is a paradigm shift going on and the side whose fanatics line up with #no debate? They are going to lose.

Yes, but realistic goals have to be set to begin with.....and then the ideology and all of the stuff that motivates it then examined.
If you look at at how big this 'thing' has become you could easily feel overwhelmed

Understanding the reality & history of how women's sex-based rights & Safeguarding has been undermined is important.

There are systemic Safeguarding framework failures. This is one area with demonstration of the process & consequences.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3301266-Safeguarding-girls-and-protecting-women-post-Jimmy-Saville-metoo