Half of all male prisoners in Scotland who identify as women have been transferred to women's jails

[jadefinch]

And only one of them even has a Gender Recognition Certificate.

Professor Asteriti submitted a Freedom Of Information request and this is the response. It's still only a small number of prisoners - although a significant amount - but we know that this is a trend that has started to explode in recent months, we know from Rhona Hotchkiss (former Scottish prison governor) that every time this happens it causes all sorts of problems for vulnerable female inmates (even beyond obvious physical and sexual issues) and now we know that the prison service doesn't even care if you have a GRC - if you say you're trans there's a one in two chance you'll get transferred.

Without a GRC. Isn’t that illegal though. Actually ILLEGAL?

I wonder how many of these have been jailed for sex offences or violence against women or children?
That needs to be the next question

But how is this legal? I really don’t understand how this is legal?? Also - how many females in the male prison - considering the numbers of girls presenting at gender clinic is way more than boys. Where are they?

I’d like to know what type of feminist Sturgeon is for allowing this shite!

Could it possibly be that offending patterns are more in line with sex-typical than gender-typical? The numbers are admittedly small but 10:1 is a big difference.

Anyone with a GRC when they go into jail will automatically be out in the female estate, so we have no idea how many (if any) of them there are. They never go before the panel.

*put not out

I notice they are not recording 'incidents' (or not in a reportable format no.7) Shambles.

Bastards
Those poor women

I noticed the 3 who used to identify “as woman” who don’t any more - under proposed self ID would they have a GRC by now??? Would they keep them in the female (actually mixed sex ) estate too?

I don't understand how it's legal.

It means at least 80% of 'transwomen' who aren't even 'legally' female have been transferred to women's jails. The prison service is bypassing the law to allow for self ID - and it's for prisons, probably the most important institution in society for sex segregation

Yeah jade.

It’s a fucking head fuck that the prison service just bow down to a convicted criminal and say yeah.

You go wherever you want

Women get no say in this just men

Gibbons I read it as the 3 are not in the prison associated with the gender reassignment so they are in the prison associated with their sex.

Oh hang on I misunderstood your question. Ignore me :)

So I assume someone is going to take this to the European court of human rights? Or is this how this state of affairs came about (the rights of the prisoners to ID as a woman)?

June 30th 2019 Sunday Times
'Feminists celebrate U‑turn on self‑identification in Scotland as women’s prisons review trans policy
Women’s rights activists hope the victory will trigger a rethink in England and Wales'
(extract)
"The Sunday Times has learnt that Scotland’s prison service, which already has a de facto self-identification policy, is to review it after a whistleblower said the tiny number of trans prisoners in Scotland’s female jails had been responsible for a “quite horrific” number of incidents towards women inmates, including threats of rape."
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/feminists-celebrate-u-turn-on-self-identification-in-scotland-as-women-s-prisons-review-trans-policy-gr3vtzwj9

The only thing that will catch their attention is a few juicy lawsuits.

Rhona Hotchiss former prison governor of Cornton Vale, says that in her experience it is "always an issue to have trans women in with female prisoners”

"My experience is, that it is always an issue to have trans women in with female prisoners, I think you have to think beyond the obvious things like physical or sexual threat, which are sometimes an issue, to the very fact of the presence of a male bodied person in amongst vulnerable women causes them distress and consternation."

interviews:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-51452489/ex-prison-chief-expresses-concern-about-trans-women-in-female-jails

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p082x063

Talk from the recent For Women Scotland meeting in Edinburgh:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpfTBEXqGQM

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3823351-Ex-prison-chief-expresses-concern-about-trans-women-in-female-jails

I'd bet my left arm the one prisoner holding the GRC is the transman. Why else would they be put in the male prison?

Isnt it most likely that the prisoner who is identified as a transman has the known GRC?

Prison service will have to be managing the high risk to a female prisoner if they are in male prison estate.

Would the prison service be able to count/declare then number of (if any) male prisoners with GRCs in female prison estate?

Would Scottish prison have canvassed female prisoners in women's prison to establish if they identify as trans men?

QuimReaper cross posted!

Have I understood this?

The FOI only has records for those prisoners who have engaged with the gender service.

There are 14 current prisoners in Scottish Prisons who have done so:

1 is identified as a trans man (& seems to be held in male estate)
10 are identified as trans women (5 in male estate, 5 in female estate)
3 men started the 'gender transition' process, were identified as trans women during that time & have now stopped/desisted/detransitioned
_
14

Of the 14 prisoners who have "engaged with the gender reassignment process", one holds a GRC which grants legal entitlements to be treated as if the opposite sex (in most cases)

At least 13 of these prisoners do not have a GRC

@R0wantrees - yep, that appears to be the case

Surely there has to be a legal case here. If they do not have a GRC, they have no grounds for being placed in facilities for the opposite sex. It's ridiculous that the Scottish Prison Service has enabled this!!

STILLTish article, Spetember 2019:

'Ministry of Justice: Updated Policy on caring for Transgender Prisoners.'

(extract)
"The policy exposes how far the, legally protected, characteristic of sex has been eroded, by allowing anyone, regardless of biology, to declare they are a woman. The prison system is illustrative of just how far Gender Identity ideology is embedded within our legislature and enshrined in public policy.

Below is a quote 👇 from James Morton, of the Scottish Trans Alliance, which shows that Female prisoners are the subjects of a dangerous laboratory experiment. James is listed as an author of the Scottish Prisons Policy which deals with Transgender Prisoners. As James is a lobbyist for Trans Rights there is only one group at the forefront of the policy. Spoiler. Its not Women.

‘We strategized – we strategized – that by working intensively with the Scottish Prison Service to support them to include trans women as women on a self-declaration basis within very challenging circumstances, we would be able to ensure that all other public services should be able to do likewise’.

The above quote is illustrative of a complete disregard for the female prison population; one of the most vulnerable groups in our society. Domestic violence refuges, rape crisis centres and female prisons do seem to figure prominently in the targeted locations. Captive females are being targeted for this new branch of Men’s rights activism." (continues)
gendercriticalwoman.wordpress.com/2019/09/19/ministry-of-justice-new-policy-on-caring-for-transgender-prisoners/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3829786-James-Morton-scottish-trans-alliance-quote