I think non-binary is actually reinforcing stereotypes and anti feminist?

[steppemum]

My dd has told us she is non-binary. This is not a surprise, we are very supportive of her, and I have another thread running on it, so not here to discuss her.

But as I have been talking to her and thinking about it over the last few weeks, I have come to the conclusion that it is really a way to stick women back in the box, and it makes me very sad.

We had a long chat in the car this weekend and the (very condensed) gist of it was this:

her: society sees women as being in THIS box. Society sees men as being in THIS box. I don't fit either. I want to be some things from the female box and some from the male. I reject some things from the female and some from the male.

me: but if you are biologically female, but you want to do/feel XX then that means that women can do/feel XX even if society is not used to them doing it.
Surely the problem is that society's box is too small, and the box needs opening up more, not that you don't fit it?

her: but society will always see women as being that box, so in order to not be put in that box, I need to say I am out of it, ie I am non-binary, I am not female.

me: but for the whole of history women have been fighting to get society to make the box big enough for all women, that is what feminism is, the battle to get society to open up the box. You as a biological woman are part of that, tell society to go stuff itself, I am a woman and I want to do/feel XX, therefore this is what women do.

her: no, because society still sees me through their box.

Is it just me, or does that mean that the whole non-binary thing is basically encouraging society to see female as one box and male as the other, instead of encouragign society to allow people to be anything they want. So this whole movement is actually making the boxes more rigid instead of breaking them down?

It makes me really sad actually

Absolutely.

It pisses me right off. We're all non-binary for cripe-sakes.....ARGHGHG.

Gender identities are built on sex role stereotypes and the ideology as a whole has a vested in retaining them. It’s as depressing as hell (for this middle aged woman who spent a childhood of evening and weekends wearing ‘boy colours’, building mechano and Lego, cherishing a shared Scalextric set with younger sis and generally running loose in the neighbourhood, as well as being forced to do needlework and cookery at school - yawn).

You have articulated, down to the syllable, what I feel about this.

Arggh

what I feel think about this.

It's not about the feelz!

agree you have articulated it really well.

And then the unintended consequence is that those pushing "gender" DO end up with a vested interest in retaining gender stereotypes.

Absolutely. Everyone is non-binary if you look at things that way. Instead of forcing everyone to go non-binary maybe we should stop telling people what to do based on their chromosomes. We should also be reminding our children regularly that what society thinks doesn’t matter.

Yes, that's why it makes no sense because everyone, pretty much, is non-binary and rejects extreme stereotypes. I think in voicing her concerns and feeling oppressed she is very typical of women.

Her argument gives lie to the (nonsensical) claim that non-binary breaks down gender stereotypes.

And yy, merchandising of pink/blue toys just makes sure they're programmed from birth.

I think it's actually worse than when I was young. boatyard my childhood was like yours. All lego was marketed at me, not special lego sets colour-coded for girls with limiting, "girl-appropriate" themes.

You're absolutely right.

Declaring herself non-binary is saying that she's outside the box. It's also saying that other women, those who don't claim to be non-binary, are inside the box and happy to be there - because if they weren't, they'd say they were non-binary too.

It's profoundly regressive.

Women's history is a good topic to keep focusing on. Historically, the 'femininity box' would have included things like always wearing skirts and dresses, deferring to men, not getting an education, not voting or owning property...

Can she see that if radical women back then had just said 'well, I'm non-binary, so I personally want to be exempt from the social and legal restrictions placed on women' then the box would never have gotten any bigger?

So she's happy for everyone else to be oppressed by arbitrary, rigid rules, but she's special and gets let off?

Because from where I'm sitting, your DD is the "society" who sees me as being in that box. She is the one attempting to oppress me.

Whereas I don't see her as being in a box.

(I'm not saying this to be hurtful to her, but to open a different perspective.)

@steppemum

I agree. It feels so regressive compared to how I was brought up - toys were toys, relatively neutral clothes (to hand down obviously) with only special things like party dresses being new and specific.

I played happily with My Little Ponies and toy cars (ponies could stand on cars and race down the hall), had Barbie and Sindy, made origami guns for playing with my Brother and was friends with boys and girls.

Mum was a bit of a hippy and very much of the stereotypes are rubbish opinion.

My DD is 4, she loves cars, pink things, sparkly things and the cars have tea parties with Lego sweets! I want to make sure she is happy to be a girl but not happy that people are expected to fit into boxes.

It's infuriating. And while I can see that it's a useful term for teenagers who are struggling with their identity, it's just utter self-indulgence for adults to use it (and get annoyed with people getting their pronouns wrong)

I hope your daughter realised how reductive it is soon

and here is the real rub:

If I am supporting her, then I accept her point of view, I love her as non-binary and call her by her new name and use they/them pronouns.
If I accpet her, I keep the door open to communication and se knows she is supported and loved.

If I challenge too much, then I am rejecting her. Then she will drift away from us, and not come to us. Then the door to tell her there is another way is closed.

But if I don't challenge then this goes on un challenged and without question and she and her generation get firmly squashed back into gender boxes.

(she hasn't said any of that, it is my observation)

so, dammed if I do and dammed if I don't.

Exactly, OP.

And the problem with 'queering' identities and women believing that they can identify out of their oppression is that, over time, statistics are muddied (e.g. male criminals being recorded as female because they say so) and policies are relaxed to accommodate all these different genders., despite the detriment to biological women (of all gender identities).

As a result, the notion that women are oppressed as a result of their sex becomes less and less obvious and all of the work that women have done to highlight sex inequalities is watered down and dismissed.

The worst thing about all of this is the massive lie that young people are fed that all the other women in society are happy with the sex oppression they suffer.

"Declaring herself non-binary is saying that she's outside the box. It's also saying that other women, those who don't claim to be non-binary, are inside the box and happy to be there - because if they weren't, they'd say they were non-binary too."

I would draw the line at historical precedent.

So changing her name is pretty standard teenage behaviour and does no harm and I'd go with that. But pronouns are unique to this particular modern concept. so she is supported and loved and her name is now X not Y because that's her choice.

"and here is the real rub:

If I am supporting her, then I accept her point of view, I love her as non-binary and call her by her new name and use they/them pronouns.
If I accpet her, I keep the door open to communication and se knows she is supported and loved.

If I challenge too much, then I am rejecting her. Then she will drift away from us, and not come to us. Then the door to tell her there is another way is closed.

But if I don't challenge then this goes on un challenged and without question and she and her generation get firmly squashed back into gender boxes.

Yeah I don't understand it myself.

Everyone is "non binary" because no one fits perfectly into a gender stereotype.
It does to me feel like just a new flavour of "I'm not like other girls".

I used to be like that, and for a while wondered if I was "non binary" and then I got really mad at the whole concept. If I say I'm not a woman because of XYZ, am I not saying that XYZ is "not for women"? And is that not the very bullshit my mother taught me to fight?
That was pretty much the day I stopped believing that I had an internal sense of gender. I don't. I like what I like, my personality is my own, it doesn't make me not a woman.

I'd really like to understand it, because people clearly feel very strongly about it, but I just can't.

I completely agree.

Look at how we were back in the 80s. Fashion was not in those boxes.

I put the blame on social media. Girls are being told that being a girl is being all made up and posing. I’d want out if as soon as I had pubic hair I thought I’d need to pull it out.

Yes, it's regressive, and actually I'd also say it's an immature perspective.

I'm not sure where all of a sudden the boxes became seen as so complete. Like a lot of girls in the 90s in high school I lived in Levis, plaid shirts, and Doc Martens. But even now I look around and there are all kinds of women and even teens that do not fit neatly. They might look feminine but like to play rugby, or they don't wear make-up, or whatever.

Even now when there are fewer girls with short hair or whatever, it's hard to believe kids don't see examples around? And plenty of older women too. So where are they getting this idea? It seems to me like it must be coming from the ideology.

Everyone is non binary. It is a ridiculous label. Show her a few 70s and 80s pop stars , ask her to think of a single adult woman who only likes things within their gender box.
This generation are making these gender boxes and non binary nonsense is part of the problem, as the boxes had been broken down to some degree decades ago. All non binary amounts to is personality.

100% agree

I've argued with some people that if I were a kid these days i'd probably be encouraged to transition.

I hated dolls
Played with chemistry sets
Wanted meccano and a train set (which my mother refused to buy me)
Only used my girls world to experiment on (which my mother bought me)
Like virtually all sports including rugby and football
Hate skirts and dresses (my mother used to dress me in 1970s versions of disney princess clothes)
Preferred STEM subject to humanities

Oh - and i've worked in IT for the last 25 years.

Probably the only female traits I have is I like knitting and I can cook (although most chefs are male)

Except i'm bloody female and not a bloke (My DH does sometimes call me Bob)

I think its actually one of the reasons I'm against the Trans movement (note - not transphobic - they don't scare me) - its because I think the majority of cases are not bloody necessary

I've told my kids I am gender neutral/gender free.

It's made the whole thing deeply uncool to them so they just get on with doing what they want and not by gender.

They can't argue with me because I like sport, am a scientist, don't ever wear make up, think "pamper" is a vile word....etc.

So I don't fit in the gender box.

I suggest you join in, also become non binary. What about your OH? does he reject everything feminine like cooking, cleaning and childcare? If not, he's non- binary too.

Take everyone out the boxes. Make the point that it's actually very rare someone sits completely inside it.

OP, the way I deal with this with my trans friends is to use their pronouns, smile and nod and be supportive, but to still challenge any of their comments which i construe as sexist, such as 'oh, I knew I was trans because I used to love playing with dolls as a child' or 'oh, you know us girls can't read maps, haha'.

That way, you're only challenging their comments rather than who they are as a person, in the same way you might challenge classist or ageist comments or whatever.