I think non-binary is actually reinforcing stereotypes and anti feminist?

[steppemum]

My dd has told us she is non-binary. This is not a surprise, we are very supportive of her, and I have another thread running on it, so not here to discuss her.

But as I have been talking to her and thinking about it over the last few weeks, I have come to the conclusion that it is really a way to stick women back in the box, and it makes me very sad.

We had a long chat in the car this weekend and the (very condensed) gist of it was this:

her: society sees women as being in THIS box. Society sees men as being in THIS box. I don't fit either. I want to be some things from the female box and some from the male. I reject some things from the female and some from the male.

me: but if you are biologically female, but you want to do/feel XX then that means that women can do/feel XX even if society is not used to them doing it.
Surely the problem is that society's box is too small, and the box needs opening up more, not that you don't fit it?

her: but society will always see women as being that box, so in order to not be put in that box, I need to say I am out of it, ie I am non-binary, I am not female.

me: but for the whole of history women have been fighting to get society to make the box big enough for all women, that is what feminism is, the battle to get society to open up the box. You as a biological woman are part of that, tell society to go stuff itself, I am a woman and I want to do/feel XX, therefore this is what women do.

her: no, because society still sees me through their box.

Is it just me, or does that mean that the whole non-binary thing is basically encouraging society to see female as one box and male as the other, instead of encouragign society to allow people to be anything they want. So this whole movement is actually making the boxes more rigid instead of breaking them down?

It makes me really sad actually

I've been pondering over the impact of visual media in all this.

If "it's how society views is" is rigid and won't change in their eyes, where is that from?

The thing is that I don't think this is everywhere. I know of areas around me where yp do seem to be 'immune' to these boxes and know full well their sex and the fact that they can be GNC. I know a few teen girls personally like this. One described her school and said over half the girls were lesbian. No gender identity issues at all.

@bluebluezoo I love the idea of parents saying it too, how deeply uncool. There is no stronger motivation for teenagers than parental embarrassment!

what really pissed me off was that I saw her as choosing an solution to her problems that was anti-feminist, homophobic and anti-solidarity with other women. I felt it was a profoundly nihilistic way to manage the problem of sexism and homophobia than ran counter to every previously expressed value we'd shared.

Oh this sums up so much for me.

Why is the drummer "pretty cool"? Sorry , I really don't get why any of those personal preferences about clothing and appearance deserve to be elevated as "cool". Maybe your daughter is reacting against your bias of what makes a woman "cool"

SHE sees the drummer as a cool lady.
Not primarily because of her looks etc, my point was that she is cool AND happens to dress and look the way dd likes/wants to dress and look AND happens to be gay. Dd is very strong that she is gay, has been for a couple of years. Lots of people second guessing me on that, but the butch look and being gay are how she has been for a few years.

The drummer is cool because she is an excellent drummer, pretty much leads the band, is liked and respected by all. Band is an important part of dd's life, and this lady is an important part of band TO DD. (not because of me)

Thank you for all your thoughts and comments, I will keep chipping away at it, and we do have a good relationship and can talk loads.

Can I just say that I could not disagree more with those saying - just say you are non-binary, once mum does it is is not cool, and nothing puts teens off something more, she will soon change.
I'm afraid this is not any of the teens I recognise. Dd is 15 and the middle one of 3. The teens I know care deeply about thos stuff, and are agonising over it, they are not casual rebellious 'anything to upset the parents' type of kids.
When a 15 year old comes to you to share about how tey feel inside and wants to chaneg their whole life, name, etc, I cannot thin of anything less appropriate than mocking them and taking the piss out of their choices.
I can and do challenge and disagree, but it is within the forum of love.

I don't recognise these teens you describe, I think they are the ones found in fiction.

I am hoping it is part of her journey, and that she will come out of the other end secure in herself as female, without the need to be non-binary, but that isn't going to happen by mocking her choices.

I cannot thin of anything less appropriate than mocking them and taking the piss out of their choices

Genuinely, i am not mocking. If i were a teen today i would absolutely be one of those agonising, i rejected female stereotypes, chose STEM over arts, woodwork over home ec, even though I was the sole girl in both physics and woodwork. Went full goth for a while rejecting female concepts of “beauty”.

I have simply pointed out to my teens I am pretty much the poster girl for non binary. I completely agree with Boy George above, I know i’m a girl, why do I care if people mistake me for a boy?

It made them think more about what it means to be male or female, and whether they should let that label or define.

Not mocking- they realise that if their mum falls into the non-binary category, then it’s all a bit of a non issue.

This has been especially important for my 16 year old Dd, who has clinically late puberty and is only just starting to develop- still doesn’t have breasts/hips/secondary female characteristics. She has had a lot of people questioning her gender, asking if she’s trans, a lesbian, coming up to her in the school cafeteria even to ask if she’s a boy, girl or something else. She’s heavily into sport so is pure muscle, her clothes are jeans and a hoody, her likes are general, not gendered.

We have had a lot of conversations about gender identity and what makes you a boy or girl. She’s never questioned that she is a girl, but she is struggling with the social side. Seeing me do what I want, wear what i want, not subscribing to the boxes, helps, i think.

As a consequence my younger dd has been pulling people up on sexism since she could talk. Everyday stuff like teachers asking “the strong boys” to move chairs while the girls tidy pencils...