I think non-binary is actually reinforcing stereotypes and anti feminist?

[steppemum]

My dd has told us she is non-binary. This is not a surprise, we are very supportive of her, and I have another thread running on it, so not here to discuss her.

But as I have been talking to her and thinking about it over the last few weeks, I have come to the conclusion that it is really a way to stick women back in the box, and it makes me very sad.

We had a long chat in the car this weekend and the (very condensed) gist of it was this:

her: society sees women as being in THIS box. Society sees men as being in THIS box. I don't fit either. I want to be some things from the female box and some from the male. I reject some things from the female and some from the male.

me: but if you are biologically female, but you want to do/feel XX then that means that women can do/feel XX even if society is not used to them doing it.
Surely the problem is that society's box is too small, and the box needs opening up more, not that you don't fit it?

her: but society will always see women as being that box, so in order to not be put in that box, I need to say I am out of it, ie I am non-binary, I am not female.

me: but for the whole of history women have been fighting to get society to make the box big enough for all women, that is what feminism is, the battle to get society to open up the box. You as a biological woman are part of that, tell society to go stuff itself, I am a woman and I want to do/feel XX, therefore this is what women do.

her: no, because society still sees me through their box.

Is it just me, or does that mean that the whole non-binary thing is basically encouraging society to see female as one box and male as the other, instead of encouragign society to allow people to be anything they want. So this whole movement is actually making the boxes more rigid instead of breaking them down?

It makes me really sad actually

*'m really interested in how your non binary status would change if you travelled to different places.

If you as a family went to Syria, where you obviously don't fit the model of womanhood, would you become non binary, or even male?*

That bastion of maleness in the UK, football.

Football/male is inextricably intertwined.

What would happen if we transplanted all these men’s men, beer drinking, football chanting, love of the game over to the US...

Where soccer is pretty much exclusively a female sport. Boys playing soccer are “gay” or “sissy”, for not playing a proper manly sport like american football.

What happens to their hetero self image? Do they reject soccer, become female or somehow less male if the continue to play or follow the game?

Yes. I feel such sympathy for your daughter trying to escape from gender roles which seem to be having an inexplicable revival, but I agree with you.

I also fear your daughter is in for a rude awakening if she thinks she can identify out of how society is going to treat her because she's female. Telling people she's actually non-binary is going to make the square root of FA difference in my opinion. If she's going to suffer, she's going to suffer along with other women regardless of what she calls herself so may find her time is better spent banding together with them to fight the nonsense rather than trying to run away from the group.

God, I feel for kids today. They must be so confused.

It's not transphobia or NBphobia, it's misogyny and not something that can be identified out of

Yes, it's the fact that misogyny appears to be less of an issue when the people experiencing it say they're not women and therefore don't make the connection - all of these negative misogynistic experiences are noted down as 'transphobia' and women's rights become a very minor issue in comparison to transphobia.

That's a whole other depressing consequence I hadn't thought of

@steppemum - I'm a Dad and want to offer you some caution around "non binary" appearing.

My DD declared this 9 months ago, then moved onto "being a boy" with "the letter", socially transitioning, now asking for the meds to change sex. In my DS's case there's a visible script being played out in small steps, it's called the "Affirmative Approach" and it basically moves children into the Tavistock's services under the banner of the protection of the LGBTQ+ flag.

Keira Bell explains how it worked for her, it has not stopped.

This generation of children are exploring the use of gender labelling in a way that makes a lot of sense, why on earth do I need to mark a bank account as "male" for example. However, they're also being used to normalise someone's need to become someone they cannot be which is something to watch out for.

I agree with you.

It’s all terribly sad.

why on earth do I need to mark a bank account as "male" for example

Science, can you appreciate the irony of starting your post with 'man here'?

This generation of children are exploring the use of gender labelling in a way that makes a lot of sense, why on earth do I need to mark a bank account as "male" for example.

Sex markers are another layer of identity protection for phone banking. Do you know how many men try to access their ex wives bank accounts and transfer out money? It's also very common amongst families when fathers, uncles and brothers seem to think they have rights to the money made by female relatives.

Similarly the bank would technically not need to know your age but it's very helpful to know that Mr Smith is 85 years old when Mr A. Other Smith who is 53 comes in and tries to withdraw his life savings.

There are a number of girls & women who as 'non-binary' activists are contributing to the undermining of sex-based Safeguarding frameworks.

Their determination to be considered as neither male or female or both male & female is having a significant impact on girls and vulnerable women. Im unsure if its predominately naivety or selfishness.
It is however reckless for others to remove sex-based Safeguarding on the basis of 'non-binary' inclusion.

Op I completely agree. It’s like those bloody mermaid action man v Barbie things. Regressive sex stereotypes.

If you feel comfortable sharing I would be very interested in hearing the sorts of things your Dd feels she can’t do whilst a woman because they are in the “male box”.

Do you know how many men try to access their ex wives bank accounts and transfer out money?

Yep my dad tried to take all my mum's wages this way after he left. I see a strong argument against asking for women to specify whether they are married or not via their title (miss, mrs, ms), but to know if someone is male or female is very helpful when identifying who they are.

I also fear your daughter is in for a rude awakening if she thinks she can identify out of how society is going to treat her because she's female. Telling people she's actually non-binary is going to make the square root of FA difference in my opinion. If she's going to suffer, she's going to suffer along with other women regardless of what she calls herself so may find her time is better spent banding together with them to fight the nonsense rather than trying to run away from the group.

Cityoftsars.. I totally agree with this! Trying to force the world not to react to you using its prejudices based on how it perceives you is a direct route to disappointment. It’s trying to control something you can’t possibly control! I really do hope for a gentle dawning of reality rather than a rude awakening for our young NB people but either way they are going to end up with dashed hopes.

Agree with you OP, and I think this is an excellent point from Miriel:

Can she see that if radical women back then had just said 'well, I'm non-binary, so I personally want to be exempt from the social and legal restrictions placed on women' then the box would never have gotten any bigger?

Do you think there could be a pathway there in pointing out to her that she is actually contributing to/perpetuating women’s oppression by accepting the boxes as they are and not challenging them?

Would she like to be growing up in a world where even on reaching adulthood she had no right to vote, own property, take out credit in her own name, be paid the same as a person of the male sex for the same job, be protected in law from marital rape etc etc etc?

How would she feel growing up in a country where FGM and/or child marriage is practised? Does she think we should just leave those girls to just suffer their fate because the society they live in will always see them through that box?

I realise you’ve got to be careful not to alienate her so you’d have to choose your words carefully, and always start from a perspective of caring for her, but maybe this approach could make some inroads into her dormant feminist consciousness. Maybe.

I agree with that too. I would be telling my daughter that she is part of the sex class of women, whatever label she sticks on it, and that women and girls calling themselves non binary are opening spaces to MEN.

Telling people she's actually non-binary is going to make the square root of FA difference in my opinion.

And this!

Of course she will still be treated by society as female.

That's why the obvious next step is to change sex.

And then after that she will realise that society still treats her as a woman and actually being a woman with a strong spine is a marvellous thing.

I think the key to get her to the end point without hormones or surgery. Do you know any awesome gnc women? What does she feel she's missing out on / putting up with?

The thing is - eventually you realise that saying "I'm not like the other girls" doesn't actually stop you from being treated like all the other girls. The same realisation will happen for those identifying as non-binary. If you look female, people treat you as if you're female, regardless of what you call yourself.

At that point you've got two options: inject yourself with testosterone, have a mastectomy and try to pass as male...or become a feminist (not the fun kind). Maybe, just maybe, our current crop of non-binary girls will grow up to be a new generation of radical feminists.

@BlueHarry agreed, I understand Sam Smith doesn’t want to be referred to as “he”, however, whenever I’ve discussed him with others (I’ve just done it again without thinking!) I automatically refer to Sam as him or he, I’m doing it to be disrespectful for antagonistic, it’s that Sam is a biological man, looks like a man, sounds like a man, walks like a man and for the most part dresses stereotypically male, so to me yes he sometimes wears makeup and dresses and high heels etc, but my brain is saying he’s still a man. I have to make a real conscious effort to refer to Sam as they and it feels very “wrong” to talk about a singular person as plural.

*not doing it!

Maybe suggest to her that it's far more effective to fight things from the inside, ie she could stay in the "women" box while expressing herself however she likes and thus challenging people's perceptions of what women can do. Given she is young and I therefore assume somewhat self opinionated, you could also suggest that being non binary is a rather cowardly way of running away from the actual issue, whereas brave strong people stick with being women and try to change perceptions.

Got a busy evening, but I just wanted to say a couple of things.

I find it interesting that people expect me to be so vocal and argumentative with a child who is really questioning their identity, who they are etc.

She is very body shy, gentle and not an argumentative person. She needs primarily love and support, and conversations I have with her have to be round those parameters, little by little, slowly a bit at a time. There is no confrontation going to happen.

The second point is that people have said what difference will it make.
Well, she currently looks like a boy (sorry, that is using gender stereotypes, but you know what I mean) she has short hair, wears boys clothes and hides her shape under her clothes. She is often mistaken for a boy. So one consequence for her of how she identifies is that she is not assumed to be a woman.

As to actual differences. I haven't managed to get that out of her yet.
She is not trans. We have been there and out fo the other side. She is gay, and to my mind basically a 'butch' lesbian and uncomfortable with the more girly side of life.

Do you think there could be a pathway there in pointing out to her that she is actually contributing to/perpetuating women’s oppression by accepting the boxes as they are and not challenging them?

The trouble is, she doesn't see herself as a a woman - her definition of a woman is too narrow to see how she could be one.

The second point is that people have said what difference will it make.
Well, she currently looks like a boy (sorry, that is using gender stereotypes, but you know what I mean) she has short hair, wears boys clothes and hides her shape under her clothes. She is often mistaken for a boy. So one consequence for her of how she identifies is that she is not assumed to be a woman.

On a current thread a number of us were saying how much we admire Julian Norman (Human Rights barrister & trustee of Filia)
I wonder if girls had more opportunities to meet inspirational women who also have short hair, dont wear skirts etc it would be easier for them to recognise that women are simply adult human females?

In light of the above, I would suggest finding a way to introduce her to as many butch lesbians as possible, so she can see there are many women out there just like her.

she plays in a brass band.
The drummer is an exceptionally cool lady, who is very butch, dresses in combats and DM and shaved head, and is gay.
Pretty cool role model, that she knows personally. It wasn't enough.