I think non-binary is actually reinforcing stereotypes and anti feminist?

[steppemum]

My dd has told us she is non-binary. This is not a surprise, we are very supportive of her, and I have another thread running on it, so not here to discuss her.

But as I have been talking to her and thinking about it over the last few weeks, I have come to the conclusion that it is really a way to stick women back in the box, and it makes me very sad.

We had a long chat in the car this weekend and the (very condensed) gist of it was this:

her: society sees women as being in THIS box. Society sees men as being in THIS box. I don't fit either. I want to be some things from the female box and some from the male. I reject some things from the female and some from the male.

me: but if you are biologically female, but you want to do/feel XX then that means that women can do/feel XX even if society is not used to them doing it.
Surely the problem is that society's box is too small, and the box needs opening up more, not that you don't fit it?

her: but society will always see women as being that box, so in order to not be put in that box, I need to say I am out of it, ie I am non-binary, I am not female.

me: but for the whole of history women have been fighting to get society to make the box big enough for all women, that is what feminism is, the battle to get society to open up the box. You as a biological woman are part of that, tell society to go stuff itself, I am a woman and I want to do/feel XX, therefore this is what women do.

her: no, because society still sees me through their box.

Is it just me, or does that mean that the whole non-binary thing is basically encouraging society to see female as one box and male as the other, instead of encouragign society to allow people to be anything they want. So this whole movement is actually making the boxes more rigid instead of breaking them down?

It makes me really sad actually

It's really sad and this perception is very worrying.

For example, if therefore breasts are removed there's even less ability to be in the female box. So to me, yes it's still binary as it's still all about running away from the idea, ideal, reality and concept of being a women.

Completely agree. I have heard children identify as trans because (in their own words) they "never wanted to play with barbies". So they and society equate choosing construction type toys as being "non female" and against their natural biology. I find it sexist and like we are going backwards in terms of feminism. It particularly annoys me when it is seen as wholly unfeminist to even question aspects of certain trans ideology. People are surprised that I am a feminist yet do feel this way. Another example is drag. It frustrates me that drag acts are seen as progressive and liberating when they are (normally) just perpetuating a sexualised and negative stereotype of women. Which is even funnier to everyone watching because its done by men at the expense of women... right...

still all about running away from the idea, ideal, reality and concept of being a women.

yes. because it really isn't about being a man, it is about not being a woman

It's such a wasted opportunity, because there's a huge focus on gender at the moment, which could have led to a breakdown of stereotypes, but they've got it all arse-backwards.

My feeling is there's a lack of faith among the younger generation in the power of collective action (like women's liberation) so it's every woman for herself. Goes together with this increasingly individualistic culture, that sees others as neutral or even hostile as default. very sad.

And of course this is encouraged by those who want to keep the patriarchal status quo.

I agree, I've always found it quite baffling.

Goes together with this increasingly individualistic culture, that sees others as neutral or even hostile as default. very sad.

Yes, and when you add to that the very attractive idea that if you don't feel like you fit in and feel at odds with other generations and the rest of society, it might be that your gender identity is non-binary, it's inevitable that many, many teenagers will flock to this.

Like every other generation that's ever existed, young people think they're the first to experience discomfort with society and their own identities. It's a huge failing on the part of the medical profession that they are allowed to permanently change their bodies when they're clearly struggling to work out how they fit into the world.

I'd be interested to know whether it has made a difference to her, is there anything she does now that she couldn't do before, and has anyone changed their attitudes towards her, has she avoided some of the negative things about being female? Might prompt some reflection.

I'd be interested to know whether it has made a difference to her, is there anything she does now that she couldn't do before, and has anyone changed their attitudes

It might, among the young. The young pigeon hole everything and everyone. However obviously the wider world isn't like the way they might operate in practise.

I don’t really understand this whole gender queer (as a gay woman I hate that word) non-binary thing if I’m being completely honest. I understand trans people feeling they are trapped in the wrong body and wanting to transition, that’s a completely separate thing to me from being “non-binary”, but often gets lumped together. I don’t get people feeling like they’re not a man or a woman just because they don’t conform to traditional gender stereotypes and thus demanding they’re referred to in plural. You’re still just as much a woman whether you have short hair, or don’t like makeup and high heels etc, those things are not requirements of being female.

Don’t get me wrong, if someone prefers to be called “they” and “them” out of politeness and respect I will use those pronouns, but I would be lying if I said I understood or respected the reasons behind it. It seems to me to enforce rigid and traditional stereotypes and is doing the opposite of what people claim to want to achieve, it’s literally saying “real women behave like this, if you don’t behave like this you’re not a real woman” and vice versa for men. Would it not be better to try to promote the message that some men like to wear makeup and high heels etc and they’re still men? And some women don’t and they’re still women?

You're absolutely right. Tell her it's ok, you're "non binary" too - and so is Auntie Alice who drives a forklift truck and John down the road who's a SAHD. You just choose not to give yourselves that label. It's unnecessary because anyone of either sex can do almost anything. Clothes, personality and activity choice have nothing to do with sex.

Your conversations you're having with your DD are kind of similar to the ones I have with my little DD when she says that she and her friends are 'tomboys'...
Its all so regressive. I can't believe they think they're being progressive or radical by coming out with this stuff.

It's a real barrier to understanding the basis of women's oppression.

I've always thought men would get it more easily if rather than othering women, they realised that we're pretty much just the same as them except with different bodies - and they could've been female but for a fluke of X vs Y sperm - and it's on that basis that we're oppressed.

This paints women and men as very different, and loses that sense of we're all in the same boat.

And the idea that we could just choose not to be women, and not face any of the misogyny - words fail me.

there's a lack of faith among the younger generation in the power of collective action (like women's liberation) so it's every woman for herself. Goes together with this increasingly individualistic culture, that sees others as neutral or even hostile as default. very sad.

Magdalen Berns made a video on this very subject. Contrasting two different ways of responding to a sexist dress code. True feminist activism that worked to change the rules and collectively free all women from unfairly imposed sexist demands, versus the liberal feminist strategy of fighting to get ones own exceptional status officially recognised, then being smugly self congratulatory, leaving the rest of the dumb female herd to their fate without a second thought.

I haven’t read all responses but what strikes me is that, actually, the box is growing for women because of the battles fought by women for women.
The male box is the one that now needs to grow so that males accept men who want dress/behave like women but don’t want to change sex. They should be fighting for their right to be ’feminine’ in male spaces.

I say that as a very unfeminine female who is accepted in female spaces despite how I dress/appear.

Well indeed, Gatehouse. Ditching the boxes benefits men as well.

I thought that was one Magdalen's best videos.

Yanbu

excellent article by M. K. Fain about her experiences of female housemates who 'identified as non-binary'

'Non-Binary Is the New “Not Like Other Girls,” and it’s Deeply Rooted in Misogyny'
(extract)
In the summer of 2018 I lived in a house with 3 other women. We spent a lot of time together that year, and there were many late-night conversations about the sexism, misogyny, and male violence we had experienced. We talked about not fitting into what society had expected of women, we stopped shaving together, and we encouraged each other to not be ashamed of our natural bodies. We called rape crisis lines, organized protests, and exposed violent men in our communities. Mitali shaved her head in a defiant act of rebellion against Indian expectations of beauty. Joy became empowered to use her voice to speak up for the oppressed. Miriam* started to confront her religious parents and come to terms with her sexuality. The four of us dreamt of what a feminist world could look like and envisioned our lives free from patriarchy and violence.

Now, one year later, all three of them identify as “non-binary” — no longer a woman.

According to the Human Rights Campaign, non-binary means:

An adjective describing a person who does not identify exclusively as a man or a woman. Non-binary people may identify as being both a man and a woman, somewhere in between, or as falling completely outside these categories. (continues)

concludes:
Women and girls should be able to live in a world free from gender and all forms of patriarchy and male violence. We should be allowed to be women and be complex, creative, and whole. We should not have to reject our biological reality in favor of magical thinking in order to cope with the world in which we live.

Non-binary women are a testament to the great pain of being a woman, and the desperate need many of us have to find an escape. At the same time, women who claim to be non-binary throw all other women and girls under the bus. The claim that we are privileged for identifying with the sex “assigned to us at birth” misses the inherent violence in being a female under patriarchy. In some countries, 70% of women have experienced sexual or physical violence from an intimate partner. 137 women are killed every day by a member of their own family. At least 200 million women and girls alive today have experienced genital mutilation, mostly before the age of five. This is why feminists argue for sex-based rights for women and girls.

Those who are the most non-conforming, no matter how they identify, will face oppression for transgressing social norms. Women are especially likely to be targeted for violence and discrimination based on gender non-conformity. This is true regardless of how the woman identifies, since the attacker can not know the internal “gender identity” of the woman before the prejudice occurs.

The uncomfortable truth is this: saying you are “not like other girls” is not an identity, it’s misogyny. Non-binary-identifying women like to claim an extra degree of oppression over women who they call “cis,” a term which implies that certain women are complicit in their own oppression. But we are not privileged for maintaining an understanding of the basis of our oppression; you are privileged if you believe you can escape it."
4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/

M K Fain was sacked from her job as a software engineer after this article was written
Medium took this article down.
She is the co-founder of Spinster
marykatefain.com/#section-past

Don’t get me wrong, if someone prefers to be called “they” and “them” out of politeness and respect I will use those pronouns, but I would be lying if I said I understood or respected the reasons behind it. It seems to me to enforce rigid and traditional stereotypes and is doing the opposite of what people claim to want to achieve, it’s literally saying “real women behave like this, if you don’t behave like this you’re not a real woman” and vice versa for men. Would it not be better to try to promote the message that some men like to wear makeup and high heels etc and they’re still men? And some women don’t and they’re still women?

I really don't know that I would be able to respect someone's pronouns in this kind of scenario (or any tbh but 'they' in particular is one I'd struggle with). Not to be mean, but genuinely don't think I'd manage it. If I know someone's sex I will call them he or she. If I don't, I'll say "they" in that case, or I'll say "he or she". I really would find it very hard to knowingly use the wrong word. It's just how my brain is.

And yes it would be much better to promote those messages and similar. If it was my dd, I'd probably gently keep pointing out examples of how I and other people we know, break stereotypes.

I work in a shop and we sell a little toy. It's got a little purple on it, mostly it's white, and it has a picture of a Unicorn. It spins and flashes so toddlers/preschoolers generally all love it. The amount of mothers of boys who will tell them to put it down, you can't have that, it's too girly. I've seen similar when I used to help run a playgroup, girls taken straight to the dolls, boys to the cars, and plenty of parents quick to intervene if their child went to the "wrong" section. Especially boys with dolls. I don't know what the parents' problem is, I really don't.

I'm really interested in how your non binary status would change if you travelled to different places.

If you as a family went to Syria, where you obviously don't fit the model of womanhood, would you become non binary, or even male?

It's a real barrier to understanding the basis of women's oppression.

Yes this.

I've just been reading some tweets from a 17yr old non binary they/them on twitter. Going by the tone and language I'm 95% sure this is a female non binary person.

They were tweeting about not feeling safe walking at night, being attacked, getting rape and death threats. This was all framed as evidence as how unsafe trans/NB people are because of mean t*rfs wanting women's rights.

I don't want to pile on or be harsh to someone that young but I find it throughly depressing they don't understand that this is a common experience shared by women and girls everywhere.

It's not transphobia or NBphobia, it's misogyny and not something that can be identified out of. The men making rape threats or doing the attacking (and it will be men) will not be taking into account anyone's NB identification.

All this insidious ideology is doing is obfuscating the truth and encouraging young girls to blame women for male violence.

I really don't know that I would be able to respect someone's pronouns in this kind of scenario (or any tbh but 'they' in particular is one I'd struggle with).

Its not just pronouns though, its also verbs.

Here is Peter
Here is Jane
Peter identifies as non-binary
Peter is baking a cake
They is busy in the kitchen? They are busy in the kitchen
Jane also identifies as non binary
Jane's prefers that other people use the pronouns zie/zim/zir
Zie are (?) looking forward to eating Peter's cake.
Here is Pat the dog.
He does not identify as anything.

apoogies for errant apostrophe & typo.

Jane prefers that other people use the pronouns zie/zim/zir when talking about zim.

All us middle-aged women in mum-jeans and grannny-pants should just declare ourselves non-binary.

In fact, we should organise a huge celebration of our coming out as non-binary. A parade even. Strutting our non-binary pride to our old music from the 70s and 80s, like Bowie and Culture Club. In our comfortable shoes and Great Clips haircuts. Flying that non-binary flag high. We can even make up our own special middle-aged mum pronouns! (Suggestions welcome.)

Nothing crushes adolescent enthusiasms like the enthusiasm of mums for that same enthusiasm.