Douglas Murray letting rip about Starbucks is an absolute joy

[LiterallyProblematic]

He starts at 44 minutes in. It’s bloody brilliantly!

He absolutely decimates Mermaids as well.

I wasn’t familiar with either of these men, and having googled them I feel deeply uncomfortable to find we share views about trans issues whilst disagreeing on literally every other topic. Delingpole is the editor of Breitbart London, and Murray has said of the EDL ‘they had a point.’

them I feel deeply uncomfortable to find we share views about trans issues whilst disagreeing on literally every other topic

Seriously, why? I agree and disagree with a broad number of people on a broad range of topics. I’m sure even my polar opposite I could find at least one thing we agreed on.
This need for ‘political purity’ And ‘alignment of views’ makes me very uncomfortable, I find it to be such rigid and odd thinking

I think because sharing similar views with people on a range of issues such as social justice, feminism, the environment, parenting, whatever, often stems from a set of shared values. There might be some things we come at from a different angle or have different ideas about, but, in my experience, it’s unusual to have polar opposite views on most things and then have one thing we agree wholeheartedly about.

It makes me uncomfortable because when it comes to trans issues my views are seemingly at odds with most people around me. I have friends at work beginning to announce their pronouns in emails and arranging training sessions with Gendered Intelligence. Coming across things like this makes me wonder, god, is it me?!

It's not you, and that assumption that if you broadly share someone's views on most issues you should share their views on everything is being used to manipulate people.

Murray has said of the EDL ‘they had a point.’

Murray hardly some fringe right winger, he is conservative sure, but he’s an editor on the Speccie and about to go on tour with the Titania McGrath writer, Andrew Doyle, who is firmly on the left. They both happen to be gay men, and Murray recently published a book called ‘The Madness of Crowds’, which talks about the tensions around sexual orientation, race, trans issues and the divide between men and women. His previous book, ‘The Strange Death of Europe’ and no doubt that’s where you’ve cherry picked that supposedly damning quote from. There are loads of videos of him talking about the content online, and it’s clear he isn’t motivated by Islamophobia.

I don’t know anything about the other dude, but if you dismiss everything without listening, how do you formulate effective arguments against the people with whom you disagree.

I’m sure none of these men are feminists, and I expect we’d all have a right old drunken barney at a party, but Murray has some interesting points, for a conservative (I shan’t call him a Tory, because I don’t believe he is very keen in the current version of the party).

Look, I think Tommy Robinson is an utter ball bag, but he was right about the existence of grooming gangs 🤷‍♀️

Llyn

I think that's a fair thing to wonder about.

As somene who has always had views that seem to cross standard political boundaries, something I have noticed is that it is often the case that people share more than you might think with you in terms of belief. The fact of seeing oneself as part of one sort of tribe can often mean that the other groups views are not as well understood as they might be, often there is a tendency to have a bit of a straw man version, or an extreme version, of their beliefs in mind.

I would also say that there are more than a few people who, having seen that those they consider to be on the other side are talking sense on this one issue, find when they become a bit more open minded, and start looking at the better commentators, that some of them are actually quite good and have some good ideas. Certainly that they are not all bad people with bad motives. (Douglas Murray is no idiot.) It can really be quite freeing in a way.

'should be taken aside...and then away' I love Douglas Murray

assumption that if you broadly share someone's views on most issues you should share their views on everything is being used to manipulate people.
Yes, I think this is where my discomfort comes from.
I see people using it as a stick to beat people with.
‘This person has abhorrent views on x. This is who you are aligning yourself with’ type shit.

I find it very frustrating seeing people ‘fall’ for it I suppose

Thank you. This is all giving me a lot to think about. Like I said, I haven’t heard of either of them. It wasn’t so much a matter of cherry picking a damning quote as scanning their Wikipedia pages and thinking wtf?!

I love Douglas Murray. I by no means agree with everything he says, but he’s always thought provoking, honest and intelligent, His book ‘The Madness if Crowds’ is excellent. He is brilliant talking about Mermaids here, I wish a commentator from the left would have the gumption and honesty to say the same.

I’m a lefty too, although seriously questioning all dogma these days.

You see the same pattern with certain media outlets being assumed to be tainted, and not for our sort of people, so if whoever wants to control the narrative can keep the approved outlets from covering a story they can manipulate what the people on their side think has happened.

No idea about Delingpod but have no problem liking this regardless of who he is. (Within reason)

I expect whoever edits the wiki has picked that quote for their own agenda!

There is a really good Murray interview on YouTube (there are several but one particularly one stands out, I will fetch it in a sec).

Worth noting that Sam Harris, the famous neuroscientist and atheist gets condemned as right adjacent, simply due to his criticism of the Quoran, but listen to him in conversation with Maajid Nawaz and it’s clear he’s not a bigot or a hater.

Goosefoot is right, it’s really freeing when you discover you can listen to and read things from outside of the lefty approved sources. Sometimes they speak utter shit, but it engages your critical skills and challenges you to think deeper.

I see people using it as a stick to beat people with. ‘This person has abhorrent views on x. This is who you are aligning yourself with’ type shit.

Yes- I think that’s part of what makes me feel uncomfortable; knowing that if I were to be open about my views at work, that is how some of my colleagues would see me.

I wanted to acknowledge my own feelings of discomfort, not to suggest that of the OP, or of people talking about GC views here, but to help me examine those feelings and understand them better.

I think differing views on certain topics is one thing, but I certainly won't be celebrating and amplifying the voices of people who I don't share many core values with, & Murray & Delingpole fall well into that category.

To me it risks polarisation & marginalisation of 'GC' views whereas for me they are a mainstream part of my left wing environmental socialist feminism.
It's not just you, Llyn, we are many, but once again women's rights have become a bone which extreme groups haggle over in attempts to prove a point.
I'm just going to keep on keeping on, with my boundaries and my morals firmly in place.

I would welcome some links to learn more about Murray, like Llyn I've just scanned his wiki really.
Something to balance the scales?!

I find Murray completely useless on anything related to women, and also find that unsurprising and note that there are plenty of men on the left who'd agree with the things that he says that make my eyes roll. I think the assumption that you'll agree with anyone on everything is inherently flawed, and that political tribalism can often be used against women (on the left the argument tends to be "we'll get to women's issues after the revolution, love", no idea what patronising shit women on the right hear from their male counterparts).

Thanks all. I will look up the Madness of Crowds.

I wanted to acknowledge my own feelings of discomfort, not to suggest that of the OP, or of people talking about GC views here, but to help me examine those feelings and understand them better

Thank you for answering, it’s good to get some insight, as I said I always find it to be very rigid thinking, but I often wonder whether it’s coming from a genuine ‘I don’t want to agree with this person place’ or if wonder what people will think if I’m seen to be agreeing with this person’

I think sometimes people can start to really doubt their core beliefs over certain things - I know I have.
It sort of opens the dam where you think ‘if I’m/they’re wrong about this, then what else am I/they wrong about’
It’s very illuminating

I find I agree with Murray on a few things, but his views on women are bizarre.

However, I don’t want to get into that thing of “must agree with everything” or I think we lose balance and important voices.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn yes agree. I’m going to see him and Andrew Doyle talk in June and would love to ask a question about this. Both are weak on women. I have never heard either talk about porn, prostitution, DV, surrogacy, trafficking.....

Douglas Murray talking about his book, The Madness of Crowds

The two most enlightening men on the left In 2020

1. Matthew Goodwin 2) Paul Embery

(Triggernometry has been described as extreme right wing, but they recently got cyber attacked by actual extreme right wingers, because they don’t want to interview extreme right wingers!)

Harris and Nawaz on Joe Rogan

Labour’s Woke War on Women - Spiked podcast

(I used to think Brendan O’Neill was on the right, turns out, he isn’t! That’ll teach me to believe everything I hear. Spiked actually hosts a range of writers and I still hate Toby Young)

And there concludes my whistle stop tour of re-examining right and left for the modern day.

OP “ Both are weak on women. I have never heard either talk about porn, prostitution, DV, surrogacy, trafficking.....”

Well, you can talk about what you choose to talk about. They’re not obliged to discuss anything.

If you read Madness of Crowds, or watch this interview, you can see
Murray’s odd views on women. I don’t know what Doyle thinks.

Sorry, it’s very long and I can’t tell you where it is!

this makes me wonder, god, is it me?!

Yes. Thank you @Llyn for reflecting on this