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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Douglas Murray letting rip about Starbucks is an absolute joy

111 replies

LiterallyProblematic · 02/03/2020 20:29

He starts at 44 minutes in. It’s bloody brilliantly!

OP posts:
Floisme · 04/03/2020 07:36

I think the worry about not agreeing with “everything” (or rather strongly disagreeing with them in another area, eg women’s rights) isn’t so much about a puritanical need for thought control but more along the lines of “if can be so wrong about that thing, maybe he’s wrong about this”.

Then I thought, if he us wrong about this what other blind spots does he have?

See this is exactly how I'm feeling about the left. And I look at the Guardian and wonder what other claptrap I've been swallowing these last 40-odd years. Now that's what I call uncomfortable! But I think discomfort can be a good thing. It wakes you up.

I can't /won't comment on Murray as I haven't read him. But I may ask my family to buy me his books for my birthday - their faces would be a treat Grin

LiterallyProblematic · 04/03/2020 10:53

This isn't like when you invite someone to join a political party that's specifically focused on women's issues and they then undermine that by working to restrict what women can say and ask for from within (Harrison/Hayton do this).
Yes! This! Been meaning to think this one through for a long time.

OP posts:
DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 04/03/2020 11:40

Which is interesting. In Britain, the woke left is a political movement which is pro-censorship, anti-Jew, thinks women should stay in their place, and that the main purpose of the police should be to enforce the right way of thinking. Add in a relaxed attitude to big business, providing they support the right ideological causes, and a weakness for charismatic leadership. It’s all starting to look a bit like a particular political movement from the mid twentieth century...

I’m really grateful to the commentators from the left who are pointing this out. There are very few of them. Paul Embery, Matthew Goodwin, Andrew Doyle, Brendan O’Neill. That’s about it (there are numerous women writers and academics coming to the same conclusion via a slightly different route, of course). The other sensible voices are conservative (albeit mostly small C) like Douglas Murray (James Kirkup is a good example).

One of the more frustrating conundrums is that commentators on the left are having to pitch articles to titles that are not their natural homes, due to the infestation of wokeism. This the. entrenches the idea that even people on the centre/soft left are dismissed as Tories because they’ve been published in the Times or the Telegraph.

I’m now happily reading stuff sites like Quillette and Spiked because the Guardian and the Independent are so obviously not presenting the whole picture, yet a relatively short while ago I was in a ‘oh, I shan’t bother following that link, it’s a right wing rag’ rut caused by laziness and the smugness of feeling good about myself for being one of the good, lefty guys.

The fact that some of the shittier tabloids cover stories about violence against women that the civilised press ignores has also been a massive eye opener.

I no longer automatically apologise for sharing a link to the Daily Mail, instead I expect everyone to read every article on every source with an enquiring reasoned mind, and I’m ready to discuss the topics further with anyone from any angle, as long as they come in good faith.

I cannot tolerate anymore ‘If you disagree with me on this, delete me’ nonsense, but the only way to fight that attitude is to be open and willing to engage with disagreement, and not automatically link disagreement with disapproval and dislike. They aren’t the same thing.

MsSafina · 04/03/2020 12:26

Sweden is a template for the madness. www.theguardian.com/society/2020/feb/22/ssweden-teenage-transgender-row-dysphoria-diagnoses-soar

theflushedzebra · 04/03/2020 12:40

That was a terrific rant against Mermaids and Starbucks - I agree with every word he said!

On this: It makes me uncomfortable because when it comes to trans issues my views are seemingly at odds with most people around me.

They're probably not - or not necessarily anyway - a lot of people (partic women on the left) are scared to speak out, because look what happens to them: www.theguardian.com/society/commentisfree/2020/mar/02/women-must-have-the-right-to-organise-we-will-not-be-silenced Women have lost their jobs over speaking out.

And lots of people on the left are speaking out - WPUK is a group of left wing Labour Trade Unionists - despite what twitter would have you believe. They are not a far right hate group. Most of them are (were?) Labour members.

Feeling that you're "misaligned" with your political tribe because you see how ludicrous and damaging transgender ideology/queer theory is, I think, a tactic propagated by certain TRAs to make it look like the only people fighting against GRA amendments/self ID/medicalising children etc are far right wingers. It's simply not true. I'm a left-winger too - not that I'd vote Labour right now, but that's down to their latest anti-women antics - I haven't suddenly become some alt-righter!

nauticant · 04/03/2020 12:47

To save committing yourself to a present you're uncertain of Floisme, why don't you get the story straight from the horse's mouth?

IrmaFayLear · 04/03/2020 12:51

I recently discovered Douglas Murray's stuff. He is so that little boy who shouted, "The King is in the altogether!"

TheRealMcKenna · 04/03/2020 13:04

I’m now happily reading stuff sites like Quillette and Spiked. Their podcasts are very good too. The Quillette one in December with Dr James Cantor was fascinating.

There are some great articles on UnHerd as well.

Floisme · 04/03/2020 13:43

Thanks for that link nauticant (especially if it means I can ask the family for Cos vouchers again!)

AutumnRose1 · 04/03/2020 15:11

Sone of the comments people have made about their reading choices, the surprise they feel about agreeing with certain people

...made me think it’s time to play this one again. Grin

vaginafetishist · 04/03/2020 16:03

THAT was awesome, thank you.

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