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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

In court tomorrow

598 replies

BitterAndOnlySlightlyTwisted · 02/03/2020 17:06

Hayden versus Associated Newspapers.

The Judge? Go on guess. Mr Justice Julian Knowles.

Remember him? I couldn’t be happier.

This is according to contacts at the NZ fruit farm

OP posts:
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DuLANGDuLANGDuLANG · 11/03/2020 12:02

Not alleged any longer as Kate has been convicted.

Appeal pending.

There was the Mumsnet story too, April 2019. I’d forgotten that one! How could I forget that one 🙊

JennerOfKensington · 11/03/2020 12:05

Whether an appeal is pending or not is irrelevant. Kate is convicted. If she overturns that on appeal then fair dos. Not sure that judgment is going to be too helpful for her but let’s see hey.

DuLANGDuLANGDuLANG · 11/03/2020 12:11

It’s not irrelevant to a discussion thread.

BustedWench · 11/03/2020 12:15

Thanks for the heads up, @JennerOfKensington.

JennerOfKensington · 11/03/2020 12:19

Not at all. As they say, best of British.

PenguindreamsofDraco · 11/03/2020 12:24

Farms suggest successful defendant seeking £30k in costs. Anyone up for a Crowdfunder? Grin

DuLANGDuLANGDuLANG · 11/03/2020 13:26

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2020/540.html

Judgment- too small to read on my phone!

SophocIestheFox · 11/03/2020 13:32

Fascinating thread.

Not sure if I am skimming too quickly, but is one part of the claim a complaint about not being contacted (no twitter tag), and the second part a complaint about being contacted?

That’s deliciously barmy Grin

teawamutu · 11/03/2020 14:06

Farms also mention possibility of costs request being dropped in return for same on harassment...

EwwSprouts · 11/03/2020 14:09

This must hurt:

"The Claimant's criminal complaint and the factual basis for her injunction application was that Mrs Scottow had posted a number of matters online about the Claimant which included: (a) calling the Claimant a man; (b) defamatory and derogatory statements to the effect that the Claimant was a racist, a xenophobe and a 'crook'; and (c) statements which accused the Claimant of being a 'fake lawyer'."

I turn to the second issue that is before me, namely whether this meaning was defamatory of the Claimant at common law. Words are only defamatory in law if they attribute to the claimant some quality or conduct which is contrary to standards that are shared and agreed upon by society as a whole or, in the old language, 'would tend to lower the plaintiff in the estimation of right-thinking members of society generally':"

Doyoumind · 11/03/2020 14:29

Surely the abuse SH receives is not due to the DM but rather to SH's behaviour and numerous actions brought? Rather exaggerated to try and pin that on the DM when it plays such a small part in the overall story of SH in the last few years. Love the way SH tries to turn it into a victory though 🙄

DuLANGDuLANGDuLANG · 11/03/2020 15:16

Loads of other papers have printed Hayden stories too.

These 2 just happened to go viral. No journalist can predict which ones will do that 🤷‍♀️

The fact SH was not tagged into the tweet publicising the article should go in the journalist’s favour (as tagging in could be considered unnecessary unsolicited contact, seeing as Hayden had already been contacted prior to publishing).

The now irrefutable fact that none of the published info was ‘defamatory’ surely means that tweeting the article to an audience of one’s followers (see Miller judgement) cannot be reasonably be described as harassment either.

The telephone and email contact will depend on evidence, SH claims that SH was given no ‘right of reply’ but if a journo contacted for more background info and a quote and was greeted with accusations of harassment and no quote given, a) the contact itself was not harassment and b) right of reply was rejected, rather than omitted.

The phone call appears to be a single call, so that in itself is not harassment, it would need to be evidenced that the journalist was behaving in a manner deemed to be unreasonably aggressive for an investigative journalist, so beyond a robust and insistent questioning?
More aggressive than an average Piers Morgan interview? Perhaps the journalist will have a recording?

Then there are emails, which SH claims were unreasonably frequent, although they only occurred on a single date, and if Hayden was replying, creating a long back and forth chain, calling them too frequent would clearly be nonsensical. The manner of those will surely be judged on the written evidence?

Regards to Hayden being treated differently to Scottow, well, that could be the result of the comms. If Kate engaged politely and answered questions and Steph behaved aggressively and refused to answer, for example, then it’s completely understandable that the resulting story would be unbalanced, and Hayden would bear some responsibility for that

Of course, it’s up to Hayden to prove that they were treated differently, and that that difference was due to Hayden’s protected characteristic, which is going to take more than an assertion (unlike a non-crime hate incident).

I think the Mail would be stupid to fold on the harassment claim, unless there is some kind of objective evidence of intentional harassment, ie a recording of the phone call including pejorative insults, and that certainly does not look to be the case.

The article was not defamatory, and it did not assist Kate in the outcome of the criminal trial. No one can reasonably predict which news stories will go viral and tweeting a non-defamatory article into the void does not constitute harassment.

MoleSmokes · 12/03/2020 13:23

LauraMipsum - thank you for the clarification Smile

Echoing PPs - nothing in the DM article tended to lower the plaintiff in my estimation.

Reassuring that it seems FWR Mumsnetters tend to be representative of "right-thinking members of society generally".

Xanthangum · 17/03/2020 09:54

Anyone a student at Birkbeck?

www.birkbeckunion.org/elections-2020/candidates/trans-officer/stephanie-hayden

On a related point, I note that they are electing a trans officer as well as an LGBTQ+ officer.

PenguindreamsofDraco · 17/03/2020 10:07

But that suggests that Hayden thinks the injunction against Kate was for the misgendering online (I.e. calling them a man online). In which case alleging defamation against the Mail for saying just that seems... curious.
Poor old Steph probably just forgot what Steph had previously said.

NonnyMouse1337 · 17/03/2020 10:23

Must be difficult to keep track of all the things one says. How many aliases does SH have again?

Catting · 17/03/2020 10:28

There is a chat box from the students union on that page......wonder if they will answer Gender critical questions if anyone is brave enough 😅

Hirsutefirs · 17/03/2020 19:40

From the Birkbeck link. Who the Hell is it a picture of?

In court tomorrow
Hirsutefirs · 17/03/2020 20:04

Know what I mean?

In court tomorrow
CheriLittlebottom · 17/03/2020 20:22

I think Hayden filters reality as much as Hayden filters Hayden's selfies.

MoleSmokes · 20/03/2020 06:56

From the Birkbeck "Vote for Unrecognisable Person" election address:

archive.vn/vMPhT

"As a trans woman with a Gender Recognition Certificate I have gone through the convoluted process to secure legal recognition."

This "convoluted process"???

archive.ph/BVOBp

"I have a really understanding GP who has been very keen on being involved in the process from the beginning! I booked an appointment with him, told him what I needed, and he had it done in about a week!"

"I submitted my application on 9 April 2018, got a hearing on 2 May 2018, and my GRC was dated 9 May 2018. The process in Leicester is so efficient. I work in the legal profession and I have never known any part of HMCTS to be as efficient and professional as the admin people at Leicester GRP!

I arranged my "main" report from Dr Penny Lenihan. Like you my "secondary" report was from my GP, a tick box exercise with a bill for £28! The key to navigating the GRP successfully and quickly is to make sure you have the evidence that they want to see! So documents from the start of your "official" transition, some in between, and a few dated very recently! Passport, driving licence, and academic certificates are evidential "gold". I also padded out my application with a witness statement from myself, as well as a family member who is a close friend. The process is not laborious per se but just a little admin intensive. Get the bureaucracy right and the system can be a 'cake walk' IMO!

Oh yes I had my Charing Cross GIC appointment on 8 June 2018. I had been on hormones privately at that point for years. My medical professional asks, "What evidence have you got to show you've been living in role?"

My reply, "I think you'll find my GRC actually proves that as I need at least 2 years of evidence to get one!"

"I sent my application off on 9 April 2018, had my panel on 2 May 2018, and my GRC is dated 9 May 2018. I cannot complain about the service offered at all!"

In court tomorrow
In court tomorrow
In court tomorrow
OhHolyJesus · 20/03/2020 07:38

If you are LGBTQ+ or Trans? What is is the T in LGBTQ+ for then? Prioritising it even within the label. Well done Birkbeck, you are the wokeist of woke.

In court tomorrow
Lordfrontpaw · 20/03/2020 07:42

I know we tell our children ‘you can be anything you want to be’ when they are little but that’s more ‘a doctor, a teacher, a postman’.

Shouldn’t be ‘if you are...’

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