I fucking despair

[InTheTempest]

I frequently read this section but have never posted before.

Just had an argument with my brother tonight about trans issues, self ID, and in particular women's sports. He's a heterosexual man- who I've never heard express an opinion on things like this until now. We were discussing biological males being able to compete in women's sport and he just couldn't see the issue in it. That 'there's always someone who has an advantage for whatever reason so it's just a luck thing'. For example being born in a rich country will give athletes an advantage etc. I tried to explain that we don't segregate sports by those factors though but we do segregate by biological sex.

He also didn't understand the issue over women's rights to safe spaces, minimising it completely- 'people can be dicks to each other anyway' and basically saying how likely is it that men are going to using self ID to abuse women.

I just give up, I really do. I mean I don't think there's any point trying to discuss these things with people who think like this. I don't have the energy. He was really quite rude to me and tbh I'm pretty angry at that tonight.

I guess I just want to know, how do you deal with men around you who think like this? How do you feel about it? My male relatives wouldn't consider themselves sexist but they are in ways they can't even be bothered to try to understand (my dad couldn't see the issue with grid girls in F1 before).

Just feeling very frustrated with it all tonight. It feels like women will never reach equality.

So easy to dismiss concerns when they don't effect you.

Just feeling very frustrated with it all tonight. It feels like women will never reach equality.

You should say that to your brother. If he says he doesn’t care because life’s not fair, tell him he’s a misogynist.

@LizzieSiddal I think he is a misogynist tbh. Are there actually any men around that aren't? That's what I'm truly starting to wonder.

He sounds pretty immature and really he (like most men) A doesn’t care because it will never affect him and B is suffering from male fragility ie having the unpleasant truth pointed out to him causes him more pain than the contents of said truth and it is deny deny deny deflect

It hurts for sure to find out they don’t care

I think a lot of people of both sexes hate women and have been waiting for something like this to happen to show their contempt. In my case, it took being a dv victim to find out how much hatred my family of origin had for me. I'd always suspected.

@Siameasy ah that's the nail on the head. Another man who rolls his eyes at the word feminist I think.

Tell him they are not his rights to give away. His chance of a sports medal or scholarship is not at risk. His safety in a prison or domestic violence refuge will never be at issue.
“You no play da game, you no make da rules”.

Might he watch the BBC Hard Talk around this? Honestly, I don't think most people understand the massive, massive advantage of a male body in sports. I didn't have a clue how pronounced it was until recently myself, either.

What needs to happen is polite factual chipping away, chip, chip, chip. Because we have facts and logic on our side, and while sexism is hardwired into society and that is why this secular faith has been so successful, information in a form people can digest is usually helpful. Speaking up is important - it opens minds a little more, every time. These conversations are the only way things are going to get better. They're why things presently are. But it is painful, I know.

I actually thought the issue of women's sport might make it more obvious to men what is happening as well. And make them think about this stuff. Apparently not.

I’ve talked to women who are not far off these views.

It’s awful, isn’t it?

Have you asked him how he would feel if it was his mother or daughter or wife affected. Using real world examples that have actually taken place?
I also think some people just don’t want to face it head on

I think a lot of people of both sexes hate women and have been waiting for something like this to happen to show their contempt. In my case, it took being a dv victim to find out how much hatred my family of origin had for me. I'd always suspected.

Sadly, this is also true.

It's extremely obvious in Labour right now, how many men resented having to perform feminism, and how much delight they take in the ability to attack, demean and frankly hate women who step out of line. And how many women are so worried about being liked, and kind, and nice to men that they haven't stopped to think whether they are being kind at all to women. I'm sure many male sex offenders do want to be in women's prisons. Where's Nandy's kindness and compassion for the women thus afflicted?

My father said he wasn't interested and it was all just nonsense until I pointed out who his daughters and granddaughters would be expected to get changed next to, toilet beside and have smear tests from. He got that. He was outraged by that.

Tbh I'm not having the conversation with him anymore. Partly because I just don't get on with him particularly well and my opinion of him has changed so atm I just want to go low on contact really.

I do have a beautiful DS though, who is just primary aged. I'm going to put all my energy into raising him to understand these things.

Does he have daughters? Would he want his little girl playing rugby and changing in mixed teams?

Ask if he'd tackle a woman or competitively box a woman without holding back.

Try playing on his chauvinism.

I keep thinking to myself it is honestly going to take another suffrage movement, it really is. I'm in.

I've given up having honest conversations on this issue tbh. Last straw was when my 50-something, woke, professor sil told me I was commiting "literal violence" by saying transwomen were not women (every fucking cliche going always appears). I walked out. She did apologise. There is no benefit in these types of arguments imo. I agree with the polite factual chipping away. Her dh is a friend of a quite well known transwoman (written books etc) and I know that while he uses the pronouns etc (as do I - no problem with that) there is no way he thinks she is a woman like me and SIL are women. No way would he consider her as a sexual partner. It is such hypocrisy.

I sometimes wonder if people have a need to believe impossible things - so now religion is on the decline (these 2 would laugh at the idea of believing in the transubstantiation), there needs to be some other impossible thing requiting blind faith. Pity it is a thing that erodes women's rights and spaces - oh wait, most religion did that too.

He doesn't have any DC yet- I'd love to know what he would think if he did.

I have a DS and a DD- and I worry about the future my DD can look forward to, I really do.

When it comes to sport I always think a picture tells a thousand words.

It's the most effective Men's Rights Movement in modern history.

@pallisers that's how I feel now, what's the point in arguing now. But I don't really want to have any form of conversation with anyone who wants to be obtuse about the issues women are currently dealing with. Not likely I'll have a need to speak to him any time soon.

We need to focus our energy on where we can make a difference I think. Be strategic. I'd stick to conversations with people who are at least interested in issues of fairness and equity. Love the idea of focusing on your DS. That's the way to go.

Tbh I'm not having the conversation with him anymore. Partly because I just don't get on with him particularly well and my opinion of him has changed so atm I just want to go low on contact really.

That sounds wise. Some people are simply not worth effort. I'm so sorry that you and @RuffleCrow have had to contend with such awfulness.

@RuffleCrow sorry I missed your post, I'm sorry you went through that. My exh was abusive to me as well. I hope things are better for you now.

Don't despair. I'm a bloke. I completely get it. All my friends get it. Sorry your brother is a knob.