As of 5pm Dawn Butler says trans women ‘should never be put in women’s jails’

[stumbledin]

Dawn Butler has said violent transitioning male prisoners ‘should never’ be allowed in women’s jails, as a Labour row over trans rights rages on.

But when pressed for her position today, Ms Butler told Metro.co.uk: ‘There are bodies and advisory bodies within the judicial system that everybody would need to go through before that would even be considered and that (trans women prisoners in a female prison) should never happen.’ Asked directly if she disagreed with backbencher Ms Nandy’s stance, she added: ‘Yes… the prisons service has a separate area anyway and they have discretionary ways of dealing with trans prisoners. ‘So the prison service already have all of those considerations.’

metro.co.uk/2020/02/18/labour-split-dawn-butler-says-trans-women-never-put-womens-jails-12260746/

(Not saying I believe this as anything other than a party strategy but thought I would post as we monitor Labour seesawing all over the place.)

Why is disagreement always reframed as hatred?

So you're Dawn-Butler-neutral, eh? Practically an admission.

Bitoffun, it's extraordinary. I saw this with my own eyes in Facebook the other day, some TRA wading in with an outrageous statement; several polite disagreements; TRA's absolute fury at being 'attacked'. It was quite breathtaking. I got the impression nobody had ever disagreed with this woman before, ever.

I saw this on the twitter thread but I don't know how to link as not on Twitter.

I hope she thinks about some of responses to her tweet, but I doubt it.

Do you think Stephen Whitfle and the other shadowy grown-up TRAs have been on the phone saying ‘dial it down and stop drawing negative attention to us, for fucks sake. Dawn!’

Why would they? Butler is sticking to the script. I'm pretty sure Whittle has written something about the need to stop recording people's sex.

So is she saying that transwomen are women until they get convicted, at which point they magically revert to being men again? Or is she finally admitting that they were men all along? Which is it, Dawn?

Id also like to know what Dawn Butler thinks should happen when these violent transwomen/men-for-the purposes-of-prison are released?

Is Dawn Butler suggesting that their risk profile will have changed to such an extent they should be free to use female spaces such as hospital wards, changing rooms, women's hostels?

Why would they? Because they like all their lobbying under the radar, where the public can’t see it.

Why would they? Butler is sticking to the script. I'm pretty sure Whittle has written something about the need to stop recording people's sex.

They were confident too that if they got prison policies through all else was possible.
It was a strategic decision. One which took no account of male pattern violence or the impact on vulnerable females.

September 2019 STILLTish's article:
Ministry of Justice: Updated Policy on caring for Transgender Prisoners.
(extract)
The policy exposes how far the, legally protected, characteristic of sex has been eroded, by allowing anyone, regardless of biology, to declare they are a woman. The prison system is illustrative of just how far Gender Identity ideology is embedded within our legislature and enshrined in public policy.

Below is a quote 👇 from James Morton, of the Scottish Trans Alliance, which shows that Female prisoners are the subjects of a dangerous laboratory experiment. James is listed as an author of the Scottish Prisons Policy which deals with Transgender Prisoners. As James is a lobbyist for Trans Rights there is only one group at the forefront of the policy. Spoiler. Its not Women.

‘We strategized – we strategized – that by working intensively with the Scottish Prison Service to support them to include trans women as women on a self-declaration basis within very challenging circumstances, we would be able to ensure that all other public services should be able to do likewise’.

The above quote is illustrative of a complete disregard for the female prison population; one of the most vulnerable groups in our society. Domestic violence refuges, rape crisis centres and female prisons do seem to figure prominently in the targeted locations. Captive females are being targeted for this new branch of Men’s rights activism." (continues)
gendercriticalwoman.wordpress.com/2019/09/19/ministry-of-justice-new-policy-on-caring-for-transgender-prisoners/

See also,
'HOW LONG HAS THIS BEEN GOING ON?
11th Aug 2019
Biological Males in the Female Prison Estate.
It came as a shock to find that pre-operative “transgender” males were being housed in the female prison estate. Given the jaw dropping idiocy of the policy I assumed, wrongly, this was a recent phenomenon, a temporary loss of State Sanity. I was wrong. While high profile cases, which resulted in sexual assaults on female inmates, (see Karen White and Paris Green ), have only just penetrated the public consciousness, it is not a recent aberration. It is policy. This has been going on since at least 2009! Because of legal cases like this one 👇" (continues)
gendercriticalwoman.wordpress.com/2019/08/11/how-long-has-this-been-going-on/

It's a sorry state of affairs when Dawn Butler starts to look like the sane one in the Labour Party.

Yes we have a culture that is transphobic, paedophobic, abusephobic, lie-phobic. I hope that never changes - because all of those stem from belief systems that harm others. Actual transsexuals and gender nonconforming people, are, and have been very welcome in most places for a long time now, and so have LGB people. We're doing alright.

Nadia Whittome MP
"As far as I’m aware, I was the first MP to sign these pledges and publicly support the campaign. It’s perfectly reasonable to support a trans sister’s call for education before expulsions, i.e. expulsions as a last resort."
twitter.com/NadiaWhittomeMP/status/1229724791206285313

Recommended re-education program outlined by Christie Neary published by Labour List
( co-founder of the Labour Campaign for Trans Rights.)
extract
But the problem of transphobia is widespread. If Labour were to attempt to purge the party of transphobic views bureaucratically, it is likely to end up expelling swathes of people whose transphobic views are not well-thought-out. Instead, they may be ignorant, or see their advocacy of women’s rights as being in conflict with trans rights.

Such a wave of expulsions would not only distance us from many who could, with some patience and education, be won round to the cause of trans rights. It would also serve to make party machinery the decision-maker as to who has crossed the line and therefore must be expelled. Such a situation would make Labour’s current inadequate democratic culture even worse.

If not expulsions, then what? I would advocate for a concerted campaign of education on the topic of trans rights as well as a culture of open debate and discussion. This is where our ideas come from, and it is the lifeblood of a vibrant labour movement. This position can be caricatured: some assume that what is being called for is a staged debate between a trans person on one side and someone who seeks to deny trans people of their right to any kind of dignified existence on the other. This is, of course, not what is meant.

What I’m talking about is fora in which people are able to effectively challenge and convince those that hold transphobic views of the importance of supporting the rights of trans and non-binary people. We have to educate activists – including trans people, as well as cis allies – in order to give people the skills to confidently challenge these ideas wherever they rear their head in the labour movement.

LCTR will have a key role to play in facilitating education in the Labour Party and creating a culture in which trans and non-binary people are able to engage in the movement that best represents their class interests."
labourlist.org/2020/02/labour-should-combat-transphobia-through-education-not-expulsions/

OMG 🤣 🍿🍿🍿

But but but as TWAW & you can never tell how on Earth will she know which rapists aren’t women 🙄

Sunlight sunlight ☀️ ☀️☀️

'a transwoman is a woman but she must never be put in a women's jail'

So, at what point does a transwoman become a potential danger to women? Only once they've offended? What sort of offence? It's understandable why a transwoman guilty of sexually assaulting women is a danger to women, and must therefore never be put in a women's jail, but why is a transwoman guilty of finance fraud a danger to women? Why must that one never be put in a women's jail? Oh, could it be... no, that would be silly, surely? Could it be because they are both MALE?

Dawn Butler has said violent transitioning male prisoners ‘should never’ be allowed in women’s jails

If this is Dawn Butler's position (& I think it needs to be confirmed) then what on earth has she been doing whilst holding the Women & Equalities brief pushing for policies which enable this?
Where was she holding the government to account when K. White (a violent predatory transitioning male) sexually assaulted female prisoners?

Regardless of the deputy leadership contest, surely she cant continue with Womens & Equality responsibility?

Omg rowan. Your post 1 up

Is totally chilling

Is the Labour Party or some members of it becoming like Khmer Rouge

Oh dear it looks like this thread is already out of date...

“ I am very angry that my views have been misrepresented in this way. This is irresponsible of the Metro to do this. Trans women are women. Violent prisoners are treated differently everyone knows that.

Last time Howard gets an interview.”

twitter.com/dawnbutlerbrent/status/1229868930283556869?s=21

On the bright side, the metro won't have to interview her again.

Oh well.

It's a sorry state of affairs when Dawn Butler starts to look like the sane one in the Labour Party.

As you were Corgi

I wonder what Labour would have done if they'd got into power? It's a slightly terrifying thought and yet so many institutions are already acting as if the law has changed I wonder how much would have actually changed...

I was just coming on to say DB has been tweeting about being misrepresented 🙄

I am very angry that my views have been misrepresented in this way. This is irresponsible of the Metro to do this. Trans women are women. Violent prisoners are treated differently everyone knows that.

Hmm, surely unlikely with direct quotes as as far as I know, quite a bit of trouble can come of misquoting someone..the words between the quotes can be bullshit, but the actual quotes must be right, isn't that how it goes? Might be wrong though.

Not surprising that shes rowing back already. Not even sure she knows what shes on about half the time

Rowing back from rowing back? She is rowing herself round in a great big circle or rowing herself up shit creek or just drifting wherever the tide of woke opinion takes her. Thank God Labour did not win. Imagine Dawn with any actual power . At this point I’m seeing the upside to Boris and Cummings and that is saying something.

Violent prisoners are managed differently. Within the mens estate as statistically they are usually men.

A womens prison wouldn't come into it.

So how could she have been misquoted ?

It seems Labour's shouting over trans rights in the last couple of days has really broken through to the mainstream.

Unintentionally, the whole debacle has had the positive effect of opening the whole issue of 'transphobia' to public ridicule discussion.

This can be seen in posts like this one, by a generally nice (but old style LGB with the T) Labour councillor, who has been taken aback by how the whole issue has blown up in Labour spaces in the last day or two.

twitter.com/JackEDeakin/status/1229873213724819456

What he regards as horrifying, I find most reassuring! It is good to hear that what he calls trans-exclusionary ie GC discussion is now out in the open in Labour at a local level. Even in Bristol, home of the woke, apparently!

My guess, and this is just a wild guess, is that she doesn’t have a clue what she’s talking about and has no idea what happens in prison or what the law on rape actually is or what is meant by TWAW or what sex is or what gender is. Or what it is to be diligent, thoughtful and open to discussing ideas logically and respectfully.

Just a wild guess.