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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

As of 5pm Dawn Butler says trans women ‘should never be put in women’s jails’

106 replies

stumbledin · 18/02/2020 17:55

Dawn Butler has said violent transitioning male prisoners ‘should never’ be allowed in women’s jails, as a Labour row over trans rights rages on.

But when pressed for her position today, Ms Butler told Metro.co.uk: ‘There are bodies and advisory bodies within the judicial system that everybody would need to go through before that would even be considered and that (trans women prisoners in a female prison) should never happen.’ Asked directly if she disagreed with backbencher Ms Nandy’s stance, she added: ‘Yes… the prisons service has a separate area anyway and they have discretionary ways of dealing with trans prisoners. ‘So the prison service already have all of those considerations.’

metro.co.uk/2020/02/18/labour-split-dawn-butler-says-trans-women-never-put-womens-jails-12260746/

(Not saying I believe this as anything other than a party strategy but thought I would post as we monitor Labour seesawing all over the place.)

OP posts:
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5
Mockersisrightasusual · 18/02/2020 18:39

I am assigning you as Dawn Butler. Hand over the cash.

zanahoria · 18/02/2020 18:40

I have just realised I was confused by the headline

I was not expecting Dawn Butler to say something sensible

SarahTancredi · 18/02/2020 18:42
Confused

But if babies have no sex then how is anyone supposed to know where to put these people.

I'm really confused.

Cascade220 · 18/02/2020 18:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PreseaCombatir · 18/02/2020 18:46

Saw this gem on that thread

As of 5pm Dawn Butler says trans women ‘should never be put in women’s jails’
Michelleoftheresistance · 18/02/2020 18:48

Transphobia really does mean nothing more now than 'won't do what I/we say'.

What an interesting reverse ferret this is.

NonnyMouse1337 · 18/02/2020 18:48

None of them have a clue what this is about and what the implications are.

As of 5pm Dawn Butler says trans women ‘should never be put in women’s jails’
MrsKneller · 18/02/2020 18:49

But how is this consistent with babies having no sex?
Dawn, do you now think babies have a sex after all?
Is it only human babies that don’t have a sex? Or is the same true of puppies? Dawn please let us know!

Michelleoftheresistance · 18/02/2020 18:49

(And I wonder exactly who stampeded through the halls of power bellowing the 'reverse the ferret' command)

R0wantrees · 18/02/2020 18:55

Ms Butler doubled down on her support for the campaign this morning, saying that the groups named in the pledge had ‘displayed some transphobia’. But she admitted that she had to ‘clarify’ some of the ‘troubling’ wording

Well I do hope she took a bit of time to find out more about the campaign & not just ask about a couple of difficult words.

The chair of Labour Campaign for Trans Rights helpfully published a long read article 11th October 2020

'For Trans Liberation'
By
Torr Robinson
(extract)
"The methods and ideology underpinning the new transphobia contains some important variations, although many of its advocates have proven themselves willing to build alliances with each other across typical political divides. The rightist, Conservative form of transphobia is the most easily explicable as simple social conservatism, still often levelled at LGBT people in general, taking aim at a new, more vulnerable target through the traditional right-wing press. Their interest is the same as ever: to keep the oppressed down and maintain their power. On the left, it takes the more complex form of a particular biological reductionism falsely interpreted through Marxist materialism – although it is what Marx himself would have called a “vulgar materialism” which fails to account for the material social order, and reduces human beings to chemical processes.

However, Britain’s most prominent form of transphobia is the intellectualised and respectable brand pushed by centrist liberals. This transphobia is incubated throughout publications like the New Statesman or The Guardian and portrays its position as being one of “reasonable discussion”. Trans questions are framed as more of an intellectual oddity than of issues relating to actual people – and moreover, as an intellectual question which they would rather not resolve in favour of any radical break from the poverty of mainstream liberalism.

But whatever ideological coating they choose, what unites them is more than what divides them, and that is a fundamental hatred of trans people. It is this which motivates them above all else. Their mutual willingness to work together in poisoning the well of British culture against trans people; and to share their methods and resources amongst each other to do so, makes this fact blatantly obvious.

Our politicians have proven themselves deeply susceptible to this campaign of transphobia, or in fact directly complicit and active with it. In the Scottish National Party, the anti-Brexit court warrior Joanna Cherry has applied just as much legal skill towards restricting transgender rights. Although Jo Swinson took a pro-trans position in the general election, the Liberal Democrats have shown little compunction when welcoming transphobic bigots like the ex-Tory Phillip Lee into their ranks.

In the Labour Party, transphobic motions have been repeatedly passed at CLPs without response from the party’s National Executive Committee (NEC), just as transphobes are able to remain members against our own equalities policy. Jess Phillips has also signalled support for transphobic hate groups such as Woman’s Place UK, a group who John McDonnell was willing to meet with “in confidence”, and Laura Pidcock has alarmed many by her repeated use of transphobic dog-whistles and talking points in various articles and public appearances." (continues)

tribunemag.co.uk/2020/02/the-labour-campaign-for-trans-rights

magicrainbowbeans · 18/02/2020 19:02

*But what about the giraffes?

I think she is moving on to ferrets.*

Grin
StandWithYou · 18/02/2020 19:05

Does anyone know why politicians don’t look at the responses to their tweets - (this MP, Lisa Nandy, Keir Starmer and RLB) - comments from experts such as ex governors of prisons, criminologists, left wing women and think ‘Hang on a minute maybe there is something I’m missing?’

On the plus side the responses are mainly saying your are wrong’ (and are really funny) which wouldn’t have happened even 3 months ago.

Aesopfable · 18/02/2020 19:06

She would surely just claim they are not males - they are that speshul sort of woman/female

Siameasy · 18/02/2020 19:08

I thought the same Stand. I’ve followed the gender debate for some time. They ignore the GC replies. But the GC replies look like the majority now and still they ignore!

Kit19 · 18/02/2020 19:10

They don’t run their own twitters though do they? Aren’t they normally run by an intern who is likely to be young and woke?

SarahTancredi · 18/02/2020 19:11

She would surely just claim they are not males - they are that speshul sort of woman/female

Too late now. She deviated from the script. She will be nothing more than just another transphobe now.

She is about to find out that despite making herself look a complete tool Infront of hundreds of thousands of people, repeatedly, all for them, it's not nor was it ever enough for them.

I'll pour you a wine dawn, welcome to the naughty corner. Wine

Michelleoftheresistance · 18/02/2020 19:11

R0 that reads like pure McCarthyism.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 18/02/2020 19:12

Do you think Stephen Whitfle and the other shadowy grown-up TRAs have been on the phone saying ‘dial it down and stop drawing negative attention to us, for fucks sake. Dawn!’

Anyway, this surely qualifies Dawn as a terf now?

#expelher Grin

StandWithYou · 18/02/2020 19:15

I don’t expect them to run their own twitter accounts but I would expect someone to be reviewing the responses they get - it must be one of the key ways to evaluate how effective you campaign is being. If you have response after response saying this isn’t going to work and even worse making jokes about it it is time for a rethink. This would apply to any policy. Hopefully they are getting the message loud and clear now.

Siameasy · 18/02/2020 19:16

I’d love to be a fly on the wall. Who are they scared of?

Tombakersscarf · 18/02/2020 19:22

I don't understand. DB has stated that TWAW, therefore of course transwomen prisoners should be in women's prisons - what else would make sense?

mumwon · 18/02/2020 19:23

so - if babies have no sex than how does one trans to something that doesn't exist ( my head is revolving backwards to try & get its self round some of these arguments) & why should one dress dc in gender neutral clothing & how does this work if no one dresses as a set gender when one wants to swap? I am not being argumentative - I just don't get it

R0wantrees · 18/02/2020 19:25

Michelleoftheresistance I thought more Red Guards but yes.

There are plenty of indications in the pledge.
This is the language of Action For Trans Health & NUS Trans demands.
I wasnt surprised.

I wonder if the MPs who've signed up will be?

Rebecca Long-Bailey, Salford and Eccles
Angela Rayner, Ashton-under-Lyne
Lisa Nandy, Wigan
Karl Turner, East Hull
Nadia Whittome, Nottingham East
Dawn Butler, Brent Central
Emily Thornberry, Islington South and Finsbury
Alex Sobel, Leeds North West
Zarah Sultana, Coventry South
Clive Lewis, Norwich South
Dr Rosena Allin-Khan, Tooting

Babdoc · 18/02/2020 19:29

So is she saying that transwomen are women until they get convicted, at which point they magically revert to being men again? Or is she finally admitting that they were men all along? Which is it, Dawn?

R0wantrees · 18/02/2020 19:31

Do you think Stephen Whitfle and the other shadowy grown-up TRAs have been on the phone saying ‘dial it down and stop drawing negative attention to us, for fucks sake. Dawn!’

I think the strategic TRAs will be focused away from the Labour leadership & instead on Conservatives and of course SNP & Scotland whilst the consultation for sex self-id is running there.