Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons if they identify as female

[RoyalCorgi]

Extraordinary.

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=oUon9j1zJ_E&

And "we need to make it easier for people to change gender/sex (used interchangeably, natch) because the current process (which requires no physical intervention AFAIK) is so onerous and dehumanising."

The process to prove you are entitleed to PIP is a hell of a lot more demoralising and often long also. I once had an 'advisor' ask me why I hadn't tried to kill myself if I am in pain near 24/7 as they would do so if that was the case Have also once had to wait over 2 years for the award I knew I was entitled to, as tribunal lists were long (as many others also go through this)

No mention of making PIP self-ID though oddly.

A decent balance can be struck there IMO. Of course I don't think it should be self-ID, people should have to prove their illness. However, the word of their specialists and such should override the disgusting 'disability assessors'

Slightly offtopic, but I always think of PIP when its brought up how 'dehumanizing' it is for trans peoples GRC..

Anyone who thinks its a good idea for any male, even one without a penis, to be in womens prisons. And if your first thought when on this topic is 'well that male might be picked on in a mens prison, so it would make him safer' then you are a raging misogynist, tbh. There are other solutions besides throwing women to the wolves, thanks.

Batshite, that's horrendous. I think the PIP is an excellent point. I've read a lot about how dehumanising it is - and indeed about dying days/weeks after being assessed 'fit to work', people starving to death because they've been refused sanctioned, and all sorts of horror stories.

But of course we can't self ID as being unable to work, because that costs money - all that allowing males to identify as women does is piss off women, and compromise their safety.

Funny how we can (must!!) take people at their word when it comes to self-identified gender, but not on stuff like PIP and disability.

So the argument is based on the need to manage a single especially challenging prisoner trumping the rights of 12 to 20,000 law abiding citizens?

Sledgehammer, nut...

And the need to cater for 12 to 20,000 law abiding citizens trumps the rights of around 33 million law abiding citizens, does it?

Bigger sledgehammer. Bigger nut!

@wellbehavedwoman

You say you want a discussion, and compromise, so can we start from: what areas do you agree should be single sex? What provision do you regard as legitimate, in terms of women having accommodations by sex, and not gender identity? You've made your criticisms of GC positions clear, but you have not clarified when, if ever, you do feel there are reasonable exemptions? What might those be, to your mind?

Thank you for a sensible question.

I'll happily give a personal (but theoretical) example. As a barrister I have to retain vocal power - I often cross-examine all day - so I have done little to alter my voice (apart from a cricothyroid approximation which has taken away some of the deeper tones) with the consequence that I sound male. I wouldnt put myself forward, for example, as a receptionist at a rape counselling centre.

That being said, I know at least one natal woman with a more 'Ertha Kitt' voice than me.

Plainly that difficulty would not apply to a trans woman who had the fortune to have avoided male puberty as is now common. How I wish that opportunity had been available to me.

This is another illustration about how an 'absolutist' analysis would be wrong and how it is important for 'proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim' to be there to allow a sensible exercise of discretion to deal with individual circumstances - both of the individual and the role or facility or service concerned.

Quite, its so depressing tbh how little anyone actually seems t care about women. People pay lip service, but when it comes to the crunch, men are much more important. Noone sees transwomen as women, as they are not treat anywhere near how women are treat..

As for the PIP thing, it would make my life so much easier if it WAS self ID. But, I am not a fucking selfish idiot and I realise that making it self-ID would result in many many people taking advantage. Hence the need for actual checks. How come it seems to be very rare for a transperson to say this about self-ID? Hmm.

Thank you for a sensible question.

Your answer appears to be dancing around basically saying you do not believe ANY area should be single sex, is this correct? As saying there should be single sex areas is 'absolutist'?

Sorry, not read the whole thread yet.

So, if a man-who-identifies-as-a-man is capable of imitating a female voice, should he be permitted to volunteer on a Rape Crisis centre?

Eartha Kitt never sounded male.

'A transwoman who had the fortune to avoid male puberty?'

That would be child abuse then.

No, Robin, it would not be acceptable for most women to be offered a male rape crisis counsellor simply because the person in question had a higher pitched voice. That suggestion alone demonstrates how little understanding you have of women's concerns.

If you can do a good enough impression of being a woman despite being male then everyone has to pretend you actually are female? But why? Why do we all have to pretend?

One of my favorite bands has a male singer with a vocal range that's higher than average for a man, and who can easily hit notes that would fall into the standard female range. You can still tell that he's male, and indeed I've heard women covering his songs and the difference is obvious even though they're singing the exact same notes. The same it true of women with deep voices - they do not sound like men who're speaking or singing in the same range.

People shouldn't be expected to ignore the evidence provided by their own senses in order to prop up someone else's fragile sense of self.

But, I am not a fucking selfish idiot and I realise that making it self-ID would result in many many people taking advantage.

Because Britain is so different from other jurisdictions (like Eire) that have self-ID and have no problems?

Noone sees transwomen as women

None of the regulars here for sure, but my friends, clients and fellow professionals have no difficulty with that so cutting trans women a bit of slack, or perhaps meeting us and talking to us without the whole conversation being about denial might do a little good. That's why, since my transition, I have spoken regularly on trans issues and law.

The old quote is that 'education is the antidote to prejudice.' I was privileged to have a very multicultural upbringing. It helped me in adult life, be open to understanding the needs of others with life experiences different from mine, and led me to a career where I help organisations and individuals deal with such conflicts every day. Answers are not always easy to find but they are there to be found if you are willing to look.

I'm pretty sure I could easily out multicultural upbringing you, Robin, so do try to tone down the sense of superiority.

be open to understanding the needs of others with life experiences different from mine

Your comment above about rape counsellors clearly demonstrates that this is not true.

Who says Eire have no problems?

As I recall, the legislation was also snuck through the back door - no referendum or anything. Women weren't given a say.

I think from what I'm seeing reported that the problems are only now beginning to be apparent.

Ah, so basically Robin thinks that case by case is based on how well a person passes in any given situation requiring no male presence.

I'm sure you can all picture the extremely surprised look on my face as we learn that Robin doesn't put women's needs as the priority in any exemption scenario. It simply isn't proportionate to say no to a male in any circumstances, really. Your no is unreasonable, wims. Totally disproportionate to the desires of the male who wishes to work at a rape counselling centre. Not naice.

so I have done little to alter my voice (apart from a cricothyroid approximation which has taken away some of the deeper tones) with the consequence that I sound male. I wouldnt put myself forward, for example, as a receptionist at a rape counselling centre.

OMG. You actually think this!

A woman asks for a female counsellor and finds out he's a male born individual with a high voice?

It's unbelievable.

You’ve shown no understanding of the needs of women on this thread so I think your education somewhat lacking. And no, having a high pitched voice doesn’t make you a woman ffs.

Totally disproportionate to the desires of the male who wishes to work at a rape counselling centre. Not naice.

Well, that's clearly what pioneering transactivist Kimberly Nixon felt, as Kimberly dragged Vancouver Rape Relief through the Canadian courts for 12 years.

Because Britain is so different from other jurisdictions (like Eire) that have self-ID and have no problems?

No problems?

Criminal defence lawyer Robert Purcell says that the Gender Recognition Act 2015 has placed the State in an impossible position with regard to transgender prisoners.

The law is challenging for the courts and the Irish Prison Service, he believes, since there is, potentially, a safety issue for women inmates housed alongside a male-bodied prisoner.

Currently, a pre-operative, pre-hormone therapy, male-to-female transgender prisoner is being held in Limerick women’s prison.

When before the court last July, the prisoner was in possession of a gender recognition certificate.

It is understood that the prisoner was assigned a high level of monitoring after being convicted of ten counts of sexual assault and one count of cruelty against a child.

Robert Purcell is chair of the Law Society Criminal Law Committee: “The law that was enacted in 2015 did not envisage this situation, and it puts the Prison Service and the courts in a difficult position because, obviously, if somebody is self-declaring that they have to be recognised, then they have to be dealt with on that basis, even though physically, they have not have made the [physical] transformation.

“I don’t think the legislation envisaged the ability of transgender people to be able to self-declare; and it didn’t foresee the problems it would cause if a transgender, self-declared person was held in a mixed prison,” he said.

www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

It helped me in adult life, be open to understanding the needs of others with life experiences different from mine

You don't appear to have much understanding of the needs of women.

so do try to tone down the sense of superiority.

Wouldn't that make a change 😄

Slight aside from the main debate but it's Ireland not Eire.

Education is indeed marvellous. Please educate rapists out of raping. Please do this before letting them anywhere near women. Especially women in prison. Even if the rapists say they'll feel super sad if not allowed to be in with the women.