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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Doesn't self-ID only benefit non-genuine cases?

302 replies

UpfieldHatesWomen · 16/02/2020 15:09

I'm trying to figure out if there are actually any benefits to self-ID at all for people with gender dysphoria. The arguments for self-ID are that it costs money, and it's 'humiliating' to have to present your case to a panel of experts. First of all, a GRC only costs £140. Doesn't seem like a staggering amount of money, if you follow the narrative that people will kill themselves in their masses without it. Are there other costs that I'm missing here? The NHS covers hormones and medical procedures in the UK. I also fail to see what's humiliating about a psychological/medical assessment, to see if you actually have gender dysphoria or whether you have a sissification/autogynephelia fetish. Unless, of course, you're never going to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, because you don't have it and simply get off on invading women's privacy/have a fetish etc. Self-ID benefits those who want to keep their penis - but if you have gender dysphoria, why would you want to keep your penis? TV propaganda such as the ITV series 'Butterfly' would have us believe that those with gender dysphoria hate their genitals so much they'll try to cut them off with pieces of broken glass. It seems like self-ID only benefits fetishists and misogynists, so why are politicians never challenged on how exactly self-ID is supposed to benefit transgender people, why are they so insistent on self-ID as the only possible route to trans rights? Are they just woefully ignorant about autogynephelia/transvestism/sissification etc? These fetishes are as old as the hills, why is everyone pretending they suddenly don't exist? Or for that matter, pretending that predatory men don't exist? Female politicians are subjected to the very worst kinds of misogyny on social media, so how can they be so incredibly naive about how misogynistic men and opportunists will use self-ID as a vendetta against women? It doesn't seem that self-ID actually help genuine cases, only those who would normally be refused a GRC because they have shown they're insincere/have other mental health problems/trolling etc.

OP posts:
GEEpEe · 19/02/2020 15:35

I certainly won't be struggling with my medical license for adhering to equality and evidence based guidelines. The research overwhelmingly shows that trans people do better when their gender dysphoria is appropriately addressed as do the vast majority of anecdotes.

R0wantrees · 19/02/2020 15:41

Well that's it. They use the script because the people assessing them often have their own ideas about gender, sex, and what a "true trans person" should look like and how they should behave.

There are a number of reasons why people who believe they are transgender may decide/feel they have to stick to 'a script' in order to achieve particular outcomes from medical practitioners.
Medical practitioners need to be much more aware & alert to the range of causes of trauma/distress described by patient & doctor as 'gender dysphoria'.

Confirmation bias is a powerful & potentially dangerous thing.

Walt Heyer
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7656213/Man-tells-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery-woman-transitioned-back.html

Keira Bell
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7926675/Witness-court-battle-against-gender-clinic-reveals-happened-cry-help.html

Debbie Karemer
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7738323/Woman-regrets-transitioning-says-considered-CUTTING-breasts-pair-scissors.html

Richard Hoskins
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7876747/Academic-gruelling-sex-swap-surgery-changed-mind-minute.html

Peter Benjamin
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7589655/Former-Army-private-longed-woman-fast-tracked-surgery-regretting-operation.html

www.feministcurrent.com/2020/01/09/detransitioners-are-living-proof-the-practices-surrounding-trans-kids-need-be-questioned/

GEEpEe · 19/02/2020 15:42

If you can only find something on the Daily Mail treat it with suspicion.

Schwesterherz · 19/02/2020 15:46

I don't know and have given up. It is very hard to escape the impression of propaganda by a tiny minority of total fascists, who appear to think their "rights" supersede everyone else's and that just feeling like a woman makes you one. Sorry but no. Become a woman then, problem solved. Or maybe go and find some other way of fixing your issues other than attributing them to gender identity . Seems like a lot of people are persuades that's the answer to serious mental health issues they experience as a result of traumatic life events. Get counselling, then think about it all again. No need to jump for a new identity.

R0wantrees · 19/02/2020 15:47

I certainly won't be struggling with my medical license for adhering to equality and evidence based guidelines. The research overwhelmingly shows that trans people do better when their gender dysphoria is appropriately addressed as do the vast majority of anecdotes.

BMJ Published 29 October 2018
'Redesigning gender identity services: an opportunity to generate evidence'
authors: Richard Byng, general practitioner and professor in primary care research, Susan Bewley, emeritus professor of obstetrics and women’s health, Damian Clifford, consultant liaison psychiatrist, Margaret McCartney, general practitioner and freelance writer
(extracts)
"A recent feature in The BMJ implied that new services are all that’s needed to improve transgender healthcare. Providing timely, sensitive services for all, including those who decide to not pursue treatment or detransition, is important. But the article did not question the steep rise in referrals of mainly young women or the potential harms of medical overdiagnosis and overtreatment" (continues)

"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles" (continues)

www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k4490

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3410257-BMJ-article-We-need-research-to-explore-the-interplays-between-gender-identity-mental-health-and-neurodevelopmental-problems-sexual-orientation-autogynephilia-and-unpalatable-gender-roles#82215722

midegbabe · 19/02/2020 15:49

Oh, has it been proven that medically and emotionally supporting people to transition is actually better than any other Option? Please share!

GEEpEe · 19/02/2020 15:50

My patient is a trans man. Trans men do exist too.

GEEpEe · 19/02/2020 15:54

Supporting people to address their gender dysphoria and to explore ways of reducing it including by use of medical or surgical gender confirmation has been shown to be most effective.

R0wantrees · 19/02/2020 15:57

If you can only find something on the Daily Mail treat it with suspicion.

GEEpEe All of the people whose stories you dismiss have given interviews & have described at length the consequences of being affirmed as having 'gender dysphoria' & medical intervention being precribed.
Many have been interviewed on BBC & spoken candidly, motivated (in many cases) to prevent/reduce harm to others in similar circumstances in the future.

You'll of course hear more from Keira Bell as NHS Tavistock GIDS protocols are examined in court.

Should you not wish to click on Daily Mail links then a google of these people's names will no provide alternative sources.

My final link was a Feminist Current article:

'Detransitioners are living proof the practices surrounding ‘trans kids’ need be questioned
Detransitioners are living proof that the practices surrounding “trans youth” need be questioned, yet their experiences are too often ignored.

JANUARY 9, 2020 by LIV BRIDGE
(extract)
It is worth noting the bravery that young women — all between the ages of 19 and 29 — exhibited as they recalled their most intimate surgeries and brutal insecurities. Later, on Twitter, Evans disclosed that, of the seven women on the panel, there were five mastectomies, two hysterectomies, two oophorectomies (the removal of ovaries), and 20 years of testosterone combined.

So, why have so many young women been compelled to undergo such brutal surgeries?

One detransitioner, who goes by the name “Satan Herself” on Twitter, said that transitioning was a way to evade lesbophobia and her “reality as a homosexual woman.” Living as a “transman” for five years, she had never even considered the possibility she harboured internalized homophobia, as she was so supportive of LGBT rights. Yet she knew no lesbians and was starved of representation of masculine women. She said she couldn’t envision growing up into an adult lesbian woman, and immersed herself in transgender theory, which seemed the ideal way to “fix herself.”

Another detransitioner, Ellie, said that, at 15 years old, she too couldn’t picture herself as a homosexual adult female, so began her lengthy four-year transition journey one year later, with a mastectomy.

Thomasin began identifying between “male and various non-binary identities” at 14 years old, only desisting from treatment in May. She said social media and the online world functioned as a kind of escape route, especially since she saw no lesbian positivity or representation online or in real life.

Nele, who identified as trans for two years, argued that people aren’t just “born transgender for a magical reason,” but that it is “put on you by society.” She claimed that the contemporary trans movement masquerades as progressive while “reinforcing gender stereotypes” — a position shared by Bell, who said accepting the concept of gender identity without criticism can legitimize “a form of caricatured gender stereotypes.” Bell feels the outcome of trans ideology is a “movement that actually acts against the support of lesbian and gay people.”

Many also explained that they had pre-existing body issues, some manifesting in life-threatening eating disorders, alongside gender dysphoria.

Despite almost dying from anorexia, “Satan Herself” said she never linked hating her female body to her eating disorder or gender dysphoria. She never connected the dots between her fear of living as a female and her fear of living at a normal weight, both of which caused her to be dismissive of her health.

“I often wonder how nobody realized that? No therapist I saw; no doctor I talked to about getting surgery; no one in my personal life,” she said to a tear-choked room. “I just wish someone would have been there to tell me not to get castrated at 21…

… Just what the hell are surgeons doing?” (continues)

www.feministcurrent.com/2020/01/09/detransitioners-are-living-proof-the-practices-surrounding-trans-kids-need-be-questioned/

R0wantrees · 19/02/2020 16:00

My patient is a trans man. Trans men do exist too.

See article above for information about young women who identified as 'trans men' & have detransitioned.

GEEpEe · 19/02/2020 16:00

But I could probably find more than a thousand stories from trans people overjoyed that they had access to transitioning which would overwhelm the stories of a few.

I know that accessing even drugs to transition is a lengthy process and self identification won't change that one bit because of the MEDICAL aspect of medication and surgery. It will just allow people easier access to socially transition.

OldCrone · 19/02/2020 16:02

I'm sorry but are there any trans patients here in this thread?

There are parents of children who identify as trans who post here (not sure if any of them are on this particular thread). They mention how difficult it is to get help for their children which doesn't take the affirmation only route.

Would you agree that a belief that your body is wrong and has to be changed to fit with your beliefs is a mental disorder?

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 19/02/2020 16:02

The research overwhelmingly shows that trans people do better when their gender dysphoria is appropriately addressed as do the vast majority of anecdotes.

Are you not remotely curious as to why those studies have such enormous numbers of ‘lost to follow up’ participants?

There are no services for detransitioners, no records to review. No one knows why a number of referred prospective patients don’t actually show up for the assessment they finally reach the top of the list, if those people have accessed treatment privately or on the black market, whether they are still transitioning or if they have desisted.

Plus, no one Is studying why or what is causing the massive increase in demand that seems to begin around 2014, not why many of those people have a non-typical presentation of gender dysphoria or what that will mean for satisfaction rates.

Children who go straight from GnRH agonists to cross sex hormones are still a new phenomenon. Those in the public eye (such as Jazz Jennings) have been candid about their lack of sexual function and there are grave concerns as to how it impacts cognitive development including IQ.

Whatever. Wait for the studies. We’ll be here to say we told you so. Let’s hope not too many kids get castrated, eh?

midegbabe · 19/02/2020 16:02

If that link was to me gp it isn't what I was asking for

OldCrone · 19/02/2020 16:02

It will just allow people easier access to socially transition.

How?

GEEpEe · 19/02/2020 16:03

I'm not sure what people are aiming for here with me. I'm a GP, I am not going to try and dismiss my patients concerns about their health and not refer them to specialists in fear those professionals may harm them. That would be soooooo inappropriate that I'd strike myself off.

Can you imagine if one of you approached me wanting referral for tubal ligation because you're finished with pregnancies and I refuse because I believe you'll end up with a permanent change that you'll phase out of? Youd rightly have me over the coals. I WILL NOT do that to ANY patient. EVER.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 19/02/2020 16:04

People can already socially transition without changes to the law. You don’t need anything except a non-enrolled, free deed poll to change your name and sex market on a driving license.

GEEpEe · 19/02/2020 16:04

@OldCrone

No.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 19/02/2020 16:05

No one is telling you not to refer to specialists, we’re asking you to be less naive about what happens next:

standpointmag.co.uk/issues/february-2020/speaking-up-for-female-eunuchs/

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 19/02/2020 16:07

You know damn well that if you refer a 21 year old for tubal ligation they will be refused at the next stage. You are absolving yourself of responsibility in order to avoid guilt.

GEEpEe · 19/02/2020 16:11

Ive successfully referred about 5 patients in their early twenties for tubal ligation. 3 women and 2 men. One had children already. 4 never wanted them.

GEEpEe · 19/02/2020 16:12

@DuLANGMondeFOREVER

Anyone trans I've spoken to plus the research describes a lengthy process in which your need to transition to address your dysphoria is challenged to the point of exhaustion. Hence why my patient presents in a typically masculine way rather than how they would normally present which is more androgynous.

R0wantrees · 19/02/2020 16:12

But I could probably find more than a thousand stories from trans people overjoyed that they had access to transitioning which would overwhelm the stories of a few.

Such an unusual position for someone claiming to be a GP.
Are all minorities of people harmed by life-affecting side effects of drugs etc dismissed this way? Or are there investigations, clinical trials & studies so that practice can be improved to reduce the risk of future harms?

GEEpEe · 19/02/2020 16:13

I say about 5 as one is in process.

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