So much confusion over transgender issues

[Shockedandbefuddled]

Hello - I realise I am here under a new user name.

I am now on a feminist board, having never described myself as a feminist.

My university friends would laugh wildly to hear me described as such.

I feel strongly transgender people need to be looked after and are vulnerable. I do not believe acknowledging transgender people exist poses a threat to womanhood.

However, I am scared that there are a lot of bad men, perverts, abusers and fetishists out in the world (far more than transgender people) who could abuse self ID.

I’m afraid to post this away from Feminist boards because of the backlash but am genuinely confused how the argument has become so fractured.

I think its ok to say I want full support for transgender people but it cannot be at the expense of women, kids, those of religious belief etc?

Again, private facilities for those who really can't function with people of their own sex.

Funny, phrasing it that way made me see clearly that transpeople can't function when included with their own sex, yet expect others to ignore their sex!

Oh and I'm not against single sex spaces, particularly in hospital wards where patients are vulnerable, but where would transpeople be advised to go?

All female single sex spaces are for women & girls' safety dignity & privacy.

Why isnt the question about how male single sex spaces be made welcoming & safe for males with gender dysphoria?

Release “ but where would transpeople be advised to go?”

Where their biological sex is.

Fleecymoo I'm not ignoring your questions, just finding it hard to keep up whilst doing other things! I'm in favour of single sex spaces as I've stated previously, and ideally a third or even a fourth space could be provided although I'm not sure of the practicalities of that.

Do you think a separate space should be provided for m to f and another space for f to m and cis men and women can continue with the traditional arrangements? I think that may be preferable but could be difficult to police.

Btw I'm genuinely interested in a solution but I'm not answering insults or getting into a slanging match as none of us really know each other; we're all (hopefully) well meaning folk trying to find an answer.

release are you aware that a lot of trans people don’t want a third space?

I’m off out so not back for a while

Especially if the tornado sends me to Oz 😱

but where would transpeople be advised to go?

I have said it before, others here have said it before, but I will say again: It is not a woman's job to solve men's problems. Let them sort themselves out. I gotta say, men are in a right mess these days. And just by the by, I do not notice transmen kicking up shit quite as much. I guess they lack all that male socialisation.

Please don't use the term cis to refer to women who feel vulnerable because of their sex.

Just because I can recognise and understand my sex does not mean that I have a female gender identity..as I talked previously, I have struggled with what it means to be female yet feel I don't belong as a female.

made me see clearly that transpeople can't function when included with their own sex, yet expect others to ignore their sex

Well put. Women are being expected to do what people born male say they can't.

Women aren't the support humans.

Why isn't the question about how male single sex spaces be made welcoming & safe for males with gender dysphoria?
THIS

Why should women have to adapt to what is a men's problem?

TBH I just remembered that a chap I see is currently 'transitioning'
and happily comes out of the communal (no cubicles) men's changing room in his skirt and heels
he'll never come into the ladies as he's a bloke
but the men are managing to cope with him changing what he wears

if the men at that venue can cope
why can all men not be more welcoming to those who wish to dress/act differently ?

Thanks for answering release and I'm glad you're not ruling out third spaces. I honestly can't see any need for more than three in any situation unless you mean spaces better suited to those with disabilities, in which case I'm all for those.

Following on from what I have just written, no, I do not think that separate spaces should be provided for anyone other than those who don't wish to use spaces designed for their biological sex. I absolutely and utterly reject the term 'cis' too. I am a woman. I do not need any misogynist prefix. You don't seem to have the same boundaries as me and most women on FWR if you are happy to be thought of as some sort of new species and not simply a woman.

Finally, I'm not trying to insult you but I am struggling to understand how someone with no empathy for women who only feel comfortable when they are at their most vulnerable i.e. in hospital, in public lavatories, changing rooms etc is in a job where they 'safeguard' anyone? How do you 'safeguard' those in your care?

You know there is endless detail about this but fundamentally it comes down to this.

Where are the impact assessments that prove no impact?

Changes in practice, policy and law which affect the groups in the equalities act require impact assessments.

We keep getting told oh there’s no impact be nice.

We are nice. We don’t blindly accept being told something and how to behave. We are invested in safeguarding for children, for vulnerable adults, for women. We have lived experience of why safeguarding and the equalities act matter.

Why are we being told to put blind faith in something? If there’s no impact - prove it. Alongside how this can be when all the current laws, policies and practice say otherwise.

So saying I have no empathy for women isn't insulting me?🙄 As I said before you don't know me, the people who matter to me do.

@FleetsumNJetsum

Trans men cause less of a stir because we're female bodied people using a men's space so people don't see it as such a large safeguarding risk.

I'm tall and broad, I was getting challenged constantly in women's bathrooms before I even started on hormones so it wasn't so much an issue to use the men's. If you fit in, none of the men so much as look twice so it's been nice to finally just use the bathroom in peace.

"So saying I have no empathy for women isn't insulting me?🙄 As I said before you don't know me, the people who matter to me do."

But woman after woman has told you, on this thread alone, that they do not want someone with a penis in their space when they are vulnerable and you are ignoring every one of them by saying that we have to 'respect' the 'female penis owners'. NO WE DO NOT. Where is their respect for women? If that is you showing empathy one of us clearly doesn't understand the meaning of the word ...

Do you think a separate space should be provided for m to f and another space for f to m and cis men and women can continue with the traditional arrangements? I think that may be preferable but could be difficult to police

I definitely think 'third spaces' are the way to go for the dignity and comfort of all. By the way, I reject the pronoun 'cis' - and I don't identify with it in any way, and I think that goes for most people here.

1970s and 80s non-gender-conforming

"I don't fit what society says a man/woman is. There must be something wrong with society."

2020s non-gender-conforming

"I don't fit what society says a man/woman is. There must be something wrong with me"

Clearly some people feel more comfortable than others changing in the same space as a male or transperson and that's just down to the individual. Maybe that's why I'm not getting this because I don't feel the fear

Personally, don't think it is just about naked fear - but about the privacy and dignity of one's sex. To be honest, I used to go to a women only gym too - because I could just don't want or need sexual 'vibes' at all. Don't want or need them; especially in intimate spaces and when undressed.

because I just don't want or need sexual vibes at all

And that includes males getting a kick out of being in an intimate female space.'Creep' radar is strong in most women.

Btw I'm genuinely interested in a solution

The solution certainly doesn't involve impinging upon, invading, or colonising women's spaces. I think trans people have to campaign for their own spaces. What else could possibly be fair?

I think many just can't seem to get their heads around the fact that not everyone accepts or believes in transgender ideology.....that people see it as an ideology rather than a fact of life.......and so they see women as being unreasonable for refusing to accept male people in female spaces.

Nobody is denying that there are people who feel deeply uncomfortable in their bodies; or those who reject their biological sex on some level; or those some who simply like to imagine themselves as the opposite sex for AGP reasons...what they are rejecting is that this is down to being trapped in the wrong body - or that there is such a thing as an innate gender identity.

..and also reject the idea that a male bodied person is actually a woman.

No actual engagement with the points being made to you I see Robin , just a bit more head patting. Since you seem to want acknowledgement that you have Left The Building,

1. I think you mean Debbie Hayton.

2. Go well.