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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Angela Rayner says you can only be a Labour member if you believe TWAW

358 replies

jadefinch · 11/02/2020 13:36

And has effectively also said that Women's Place and the LGB Alliance (essentially groups for women, gays and lesbians to meet and discuss women's, gay and lesbian issues) are hate groups and them meeting are hate crimes

Angela Rayner says you can only be a Labour member if you believe TWAW
Angela Rayner says you can only be a Labour member if you believe TWAW
Angela Rayner says you can only be a Labour member if you believe TWAW
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Michelleoftheresistance · 12/02/2020 11:20

That's the fantasy ideal - yes - that everyone will finally see the light and be redeemed.

And that women and LGB people and the working classes and Jewish people and northerners and pensioners etc etc etc will believe that it's better to vote in a party that openly hate them, disparage them, wish to remove their rights and will work hard to oppress and attack them.... is better than Tory scandal and fiddling.

That was kind of tested to destruction at the last election. That should have been an open goal for an opposition party.

ChattyLion · 12/02/2020 12:08

Can we start asking MPs who come on MN webchats about this in an open unrestricted way now?
It’s important enough to some of them to call for women to be kicked out of their political party over this, so it seems they should be happy to talk about it to women?

bellinisurge · 12/02/2020 12:52

Just seen on Twitter 10 pledges from Kier Starmer. Guess what one of them isn't? Should he be expelled now?

Arseaboutdarkly · 12/02/2020 12:55

Starmer is presumably staying away because he's a canny politician who thinks he has already said enough to display fealty to the Queer theory crowd, and realizes leaving this one alone may get him the votes of the women who are so pissed off with it

Or, he thinks it's ridiculous and extremely sinister, as anyone with sense can see. He's got my vote no contest

ErrolTheDragon · 12/02/2020 12:58

Yes. It would be a good idea if he was, along with everyone else who doesn't really believe TWAW and/or understands the need to retain women's sex based rights. Then this body of people (who I would predict would include many trade unionists representing non-elite professions) could start the doubtless long and arduous task of building an opposition party fit for purpose.

bellinisurge · 12/02/2020 13:15

I'm guessing, judging by his comments on here, that he is trying the "kicking the can down the road" approach to tackling this issue head on. Sadly, for him, we are down at the end of that road.
As my old boss used to say " shit, or get off the pot".

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 12/02/2020 13:22

Starmer is in the lead. If he were to come out as GC now (if he is), he'd risk losing the leadership election because he would be immediately targeted.
And as we all know, there are a lot of people who haven't yet realised that there is a lot more to this than a few mean radical feminists. They'll read the headline and not vote for him.
He won't be able to change anything if he doesn't get voted in. I think it's sensible for him to keep his head down.

ErrolTheDragon · 12/02/2020 13:29

he'd risk losing the leadership election because he would be immediately targeted.*

Is there really no chance that he'd win more support than he lost? Obviously not from bromentum but among trade unions and rank and file labour MPs?

Michelleoftheresistance · 12/02/2020 13:38

Starmer isn't GC, he's one of the borg. If he has sufficient sense, as the party did, to make faintly 'well we might think about it' noises in order to get elected at a key moment, it will be a reflection on what he thinks will best serve Starmer. It won't in any way reflect intention, integrity or any actually held principles.

The MN chat was very clear on where he stands on women, LGB and safeguarding, and its a position right beside the bus he's putting them under.

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 12/02/2020 13:52

Is there really no chance that he'd win more support than he lost? Obviously not from bromentum but among trade unions and rank and file labour MPs?
I don't know. He's well in the lead. I think it would a risky move.

I have no idea if he is GC or not. I do know that he's avoiding it to an extent. I think his MN comment was that 'trans rights are human rights' which is pretty vague and doesn't really mean anything.
I dont believe he's said TWAW although I could be wrong.
His background is all law and human rights. I'd be surprised if he didn't see the implications, especially after they'd been pointed out to him.

Arseaboutdarkly · 12/02/2020 13:58

He having to tread a v wobbly tightrope but I don't believe he is just self-interested. He comes from a background of fighting through the courts for pp rights. He could certainly have made a nice comfy living for himself as a top barrister and tory mp but he chose to go labour and that shows principles.

As Turtles points out, any public figure who dares to oppose or 'shelter' those opposing (to use their own type of language) is immediately targeted for a full-on hate campaign. Once he's in place as leader he will have more clout to take this on, but he will still need a clever strategy.

bellinisurge · 12/02/2020 14:01

He's been a senior lawyer- almost The senior lawyer. He must be able to spot the loophole given to bad guys by self-ID . It'll be a test of his legal analysis skills and his leadership to navigate this in such a public campaign.

Floisme · 12/02/2020 14:07

Entertaining as this all is, let's keep our eye on the ball.
This is the part that's actually in government at the moment:
The government has delayed publication of its long-awaited decision on changes to the Gender Recognition Act, but it is expected to make a call on whether to push ahead with allowing people to legally self-identify their gender as soon as next month. Liz Truss, the trade secretary and women’s and equalities minister, is leading on the policy.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/12/labour-leadership-row-over-support-for-trans-rights-charter

Michelleoftheresistance · 12/02/2020 14:11

How many times has 'a decision been expected' now? We've had a lot of deadlines. Including the comment in the press in the last few days of 'its on ice'.

ThinEndoftheWedge · 12/02/2020 14:12

What has Andy Burnham said re Trans rights/Women’s Rights/GC stance?

bellinisurge · 12/02/2020 14:17

I think he's on the Self ID train. But, as with everything Burnham, if he spots an opportunity to jump on another gravy train, he will.

GCAcademic · 12/02/2020 14:20

Burnham and some other Labour mayors, inc. Sadiq Khan and that horrible Liverpool misogynist, co-signed a letter to the government urging them to implement self-ID, I think.

Mockersisrightasusual · 12/02/2020 14:21

Burnham's star first rose when he was booed at the Hillsborough Memorial and reversed govt. policy on the spot.

If he was a dog, he'd do anything for a biscuit.

Floisme · 12/02/2020 14:24

How many times has 'a decision been expected' now?
You may be right but there will be some heavy duty lobbying going on which we're shut out of. Despite labelling us all far right they will have no compunction whatsoever about working with this government.

Have any Tory ministers commented on this debacle? Anyone pressed Starmer and Thornberry to commit? Not like them to miss an opportunity to take the piss (and take the pressure off themselves).

I was laughing last night but now I'm beginning to feel uneasy.

bellinisurge · 12/02/2020 14:25

Precisely, Mockersisrightasusual . But people love him. So if he jumped over to what looks like a common sense position, I would be happy to see it and the people he'd bring with him but I wouldn't trust him to make me a cup of tea.

TheABC · 12/02/2020 14:29

Watching with equal parts of amusement and dismay. Like Brexit, I think this strand of public discourse has to dragged into the open and pushed to the max before it loses its power. In the meantime, I plan to protest and safeguard my children as much as possible. I do feel sorry for trans people who are going to be thrown under the bus on this one, when the next scandal breaks.

EmpressoftheMundane · 12/02/2020 14:29

Performative "wokeness" is going to sink the Labour Party.

They'll get what they deserve at the ballot box.
I feel sorry for the populace which has no real choice at the moment.
I think we could get a better performance out of the Conservatives if there was some real competition nipping at their heals.

Signing that stupid thing is a vote killer with the general public.

bellinisurge · 12/02/2020 14:34

It's sad that they are handing an open goal to the Tories on this and that the Tories will get to dominate the opposition to Self-ID. But if they haven't learned the lesson from Brexit campaigning chaos, they will have to endure further loss. And the Self-Id crowd can kid themselves that it's a Labour/Tory issue. No one wins. Everyone loses.

TheABC · 12/02/2020 14:35

I also think the Conservatives are benefitting too much from Labour's self-immolation ton this issue to pull the gun too quickly on the consultation. That's not to say they won't do it - but it's going to be done as quietly as possible.

"Don't interrupt your enemy in the middle of making a mistake". (Napoleon).

bellinisurge · 12/02/2020 14:40

On Politics Live this morning, there was a Tory being smart enough to stay out of it other than to make the comment that you should feel confident enough in your views to be able to debate them with people who don't agree with you. Tory candidate for London Mayor that isn't Rory Stewart?