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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Menstruators and people who have periods

155 replies

HuckfromScandal · 09/02/2020 12:19

Well, this has enraged me, and I am wondering if I am being unreasonable?

Audible has a sale on, and I was looking to see if there was anything worth buying, and the book “period power” was listed.
The blurb has left me enraged, and I wouldn’t now buy it even if I really was interested. (Aware I am cutting off my nose). Is it just me???

Menstruators and people who have periods
OP posts:
Binterested · 10/02/2020 12:32

Things that don’t matter? Like the name of my sex class? Like the reason for my monthly bleed? Like the biological status of half the world?

Do give over. Women are not foolish children so we don’t need your Aesop’s fable analogy.

SapphosRock · 10/02/2020 12:36

Yeah I see your point. I guess I am coming from an angle that trans men do exist and they do menstruate so I don't mind calling them a menstruator rather than insisting they must be called women.

Being inclusive doesn't lead to erasure.

In any context that doesn't include trans men then the correct word is obviously woman.

Same as I wouldn't mind calling a trans man who had a child a pregnant person or a chest feeder. It doesn't stop women being pregnant women and breast feeders.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 10/02/2020 12:46

Yes i can see what you’re saying sapphos

Im not 100% sure that everyone is on board with just using the word women...seems to be that some people would be happy with ‘women and...(insert suitable phrase)

And the danger seems to be that while some people would be happy to have phrases that include the word women AND...there appears to be moves towards getting rid of the word women

So in the case of a leaflet for smears it was referring to people with a cervix...when it came to a leaflet about prostate cancer it was men

SapphosRock · 10/02/2020 12:56

I see it similar to using the word 'partner' instead of 'husband' or 'wife'.

If the context is addressing a number of people in relationships with other people then referring to 'partners' is fine by me and doesn't erase the meaning of the words 'husband' or 'wife' from those who are married.

Appreciate that menstruating is a bodily function and therefore more jarring than partner but essentially it's similar.

R0wantrees · 10/02/2020 12:57

The testimony of young women who previously identified as 'transmen' is very important. Language which is presumed to be positive & 'inclusive' can have a significantly detrimental effect on young people who are impacted by distress/trauma by reinforcing dissociation.

Feminist Current article, 'Detransitioners are living proof the practices surrounding ‘trans kids’ need be questioned
Detransitioners are living proof that the practices surrounding “trans youth” need be questioned, yet their experiences are too often ignored.'

JANUARY 9, 2020 by LIV BRIDGE
(extract)
"It is worth noting the bravery that young women — all between the ages of 19 and 29 — exhibited as they recalled their most intimate surgeries and brutal insecurities. Later, on Twitter, Evans disclosed that, of the seven women on the panel, there were five mastectomies, two hysterectomies, two oophorectomies (the removal of ovaries), and 20 years of testosterone combined.

So, why have so many young women been compelled to undergo such brutal surgeries?

One detransitioner, who goes by the name “Satan Herself” on Twitter, said that transitioning was a way to evade lesbophobia and her “reality as a homosexual woman.” Living as a “transman” for five years, she had never even considered the possibility she harboured internalized homophobia, as she was so supportive of LGBT rights. Yet she knew no lesbians and was starved of representation of masculine women. She said she couldn’t envision growing up into an adult lesbian woman, and immersed herself in transgender theory, which seemed the ideal way to “fix herself.”

Another detransitioner, Ellie, said that, at 15 years old, she too couldn’t picture herself as a homosexual adult female, so began her lengthy four-year transition journey one year later, with a mastectomy.

Thomasin began identifying between “male and various non-binary identities” at 14 years old, only desisting from treatment in May. She said social media and the online world functioned as a kind of escape route, especially since she saw no lesbian positivity or representation online or in real life.

Nele, who identified as trans for two years, argued that people aren’t just “born transgender for a magical reason,” but that it is “put on you by society.” She claimed that the contemporary trans movement masquerades as progressive while “reinforcing gender stereotypes” — a position shared by Bell, who said accepting the concept of gender identity without criticism can legitimize “a form of caricatured gender stereotypes.” Bell feels the outcome of trans ideology is a “movement that actually acts against the support of lesbian and gay people.”

Many also explained that they had pre-existing body issues, some manifesting in life-threatening eating disorders, alongside gender dysphoria.

Despite almost dying from anorexia, “Satan Herself” said she never linked hating her female body to her eating disorder or gender dysphoria. She never connected the dots between her fear of living as a female and her fear of living at a normal weight, both of which caused her to be dismissive of her health.

“I often wonder how nobody realized that? No therapist I saw; no doctor I talked to about getting surgery; no one in my personal life,” she said to a tear-choked room. “I just wish someone would have been there to tell me not to get castrated at 21…" (continues)
www.feministcurrent.com/2020/01/09/detransitioners-are-living-proof-the-practices-surrounding-trans-kids-need-be-questioned/

SisterWendyBuckett · 10/02/2020 14:13

Yes Rowan

These women tried to make their female bodies disappear. They tried to will their female bodies away by all means available.

Removing the means to describe our bodies and biological functions with regard to femaleness renders all women as less than, as other. As non-men, as nothing.

Disappear the language we use to describe ourselves and we become invisible.

2BthatUnnoticed · 10/02/2020 14:19

No one is dying on a hill Confused. This ridiculously hyperbole must STOP.

We are simply saying we are women and girls.

So call yourself a “menstruator” if you want. But do not label others with these degrading terms because I for one, do not consent.

R0wantrees · 10/02/2020 14:19

Disappear the language we use to describe ourselves and we become invisible.

Yes

Furthermore if we support & do not challenge the disappearing of the language then we collude with significant potentially life-long physical & psychological harm being done to vulnerable girls & women.

2BthatUnnoticed · 10/02/2020 14:30

And it’s nothing like husband/wife v “partner.”

Those are terms people use to describe themselves; they consent to the word.

Whereas “Menstruator” is being forced upon 3.5 billion odd women against their will (except for a few who consent or don’t care).

It matters. Yes, even in deprived areas where we have bigger fish to fry.

2BthatUnnoticed · 10/02/2020 14:33

women and others who menstruate

  • problem solved. I know some purists won’t like it but could most people live with this?
R0wantrees · 10/02/2020 14:34

There are a large number of women & girls who will not recognise that 'menstruator' applies to them.
'Inclusive' language such as this is not accessible language it has the features of 'jargon' which excludes people not in a group rather than includes.

Justhadathought · 10/02/2020 14:37

Crying outrage about things that really don't matter could cause many to switch off from the other important concerns feminists have

What is it that you don't get about how this issue is the single biggest, most important issue.....the issue which underlines and forms the foundations for all of the other issues?

I'm not sure how old you are, or about how active you've been politically in the past...or how much consciousness raising you've done...? .but let me tell you - this is the most profound and pressing first order issue there is..... If you don't know what a woman is; what being female implies, and how women are treated - around the world - on account of their being girls and women - then I'm not quite sure what you've been up to?

Ever heard of colonisation? That's how it feels.

Justhadathought · 10/02/2020 14:39

It's a strange hill to choose to die on when there are plenty of outrageous things happening to women in the world

Because it lies at the root of all of those oppressions. That's why.

Justhadathought · 10/02/2020 14:44

It will stop people taking notice of the problems that are genuinely affecting women and girls

Like not being afforded the privacy and dignity due to their sex; like not having facilities which cater to their specific needs; like not being able to name their own experience using universally accepted and acknowledged terms; like having to shove up for anyone who wants to claim their space; like having their language controlled; like being told that being a woman is nothing more meaningful than a pretty face; that women are just non-men......and so on....

Justhadathought · 10/02/2020 14:49

Yeah I see your point. I guess I am coming from an angle that trans men do exist

And that is the crux of the issue - and hence the profound disagreements. You believe in trans ideology; you believe that people can change sex; that people can be born in the 'wrong body'......you believe that a man can become a woman based solely on how he feels about himself; you believe that children can be trapped in the wrong sex; you believe all of that........You don't believe that what makes you a woman is the fact of your sex; you believe in gender identities and roles......as being discrete and meaningful things - that exist in people's heads. You believe that personal feelings trump all else......

I don't!

I accept that people struggle with self identity and feelings about themselves and their role in the world - but none of the rest of it.

SapphosRock · 10/02/2020 16:52

@Justhadathought I don't believe anything of the sort. There's no need to be an arse about it though and go around referring to trans men as women.

FrogsFrogs · 10/02/2020 17:37

Sapphos your earlier comments about what to call girls in a school Vs boys if needed to separate girls a sex basis stand for all to see.

You say no one is suggesting that girls be called menstruators yet suggest exactly that in certain circs while saying boys should be referred to as males.

Can you genuinely see no double standards there?

FrogsFrogs · 10/02/2020 17:39

Why do you think it's ok to refer to transgirls as male but not transboys as female?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2020 17:41

There's no need to be an arse about it though and go around referring to trans men as women.

Well, you do you. Other people will make up their own mind. You admit that you are coming from the angle that "trans men" exist and you want to respect that. Other people aren't coming from that angle, and believe clarity and truth are more important.

R0wantrees · 10/02/2020 18:06

Reviews into the appropriateness of medical treatment of children, especially girls who have been identified as 'transgender' will extend to the impact of 'social transition' & affirmation they are the opposite sex/gender by trusted adults, organisations & public services.

Times today
'Review ordered into rules on child gender transition'
(extract)
An expert told The Times that the rules, agreed between NHS England and the Tavistock and Portman Trust, which runs Britain’s first gender identity clinic for children in north London, is based on advice that lacks robust evidence and comes from clinicians with close links to transgender groups.

NHS England has ordered an independent review into the use of puberty suppressants and cross-sex hormones. The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (Nice), which is responsible for clinical practice guidelines in England and Wales, also has been asked to develop guidance for the first time about referring children to gender identity services.

Existing NHS treatment draws heavily on international guidelines that recommend approaches in care for gender dysphoria. An NHS contract with the Tavistock trust issued in 2016 says that it will “conform” or “broadly conform” to standards of care issued by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) in 2012. These say that they reflect the best available science and “professional consensus”.

However, Gene Feder, professor of primary care at the University of Bristol and an expert in clinical guidelines, said that these fell far below the benchmark for British healthcare guidelines used by Nice and that he would not recommend their use.

WPATH has been accused of conflicts of interest by receiving income linked with its guidelines or of working at universities or clinics that received funds from advocacy groups or drugs companies that favour certain treatments or receive grants and publish research on transgender care." (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9fd61a26-4b67-11ea-b112-75acb94b3417?shareToken=54c4ca4370348bd0d159acfd39d65d06&wgu=270525_54264_15813575174612_bc9f11a04e&wgexpiry=1589133517&utm_source=planit&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_content=22278

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3818902-Review-ordered-into-rules-on-child-gender-transition

Wereallsquare · 10/02/2020 18:08

I am sure the teachers would be able to figure out that boys who identified as girls should still go to the talk about male puberty.

Really? But would that not offend the boys who identify as girls? Would that even be legal? They are girls if they identify as girls, according to your ideology. If a teacher singles the boy who identifies as a girl out to go with the boys who identify as boys, would the teacher not be risking arrest? How is that any different from referring to the boy who identifies as a girl as "him"? Why would a teacher knowingly risk overriding the identity of the boy who identifies as a girl. Identities trumps biology in your ideology, doesn't it?

R0wantrees · 10/02/2020 18:20

Guidance such as that from NASUWT & CPS may well prevent/inhibit teachers from feeling able to ensure children in their care attend the appropriate talk for their sex.

www.nasuwt.org.uk/uploads/assets/uploaded/085066bb-c224-40de-b79e2a1358801ee9.pdf

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3809302-CPS-school-hate-crime-guidance-we-must-complain

SoldiersinPetticoats · 10/02/2020 18:26

Is nothing sacred? Now Fitbit is getting pressure remove the word women from its menstrual tracking app. FFS.

Menstruators and people who have periods
R0wantrees · 10/02/2020 18:49

I dont think anything is sacred at the moment.

As so many precedents have now been set which remove the word woman/girl, the number of organisations & companies following suit will be increasing until there's a significant challenge.

Binterested · 10/02/2020 18:51

Only trans ideology is sacred. The rest of us can be scarified to it.

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