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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Line Manager just "come out" as Non-binary

532 replies

SpinningTooFastWantToGetOff · 07/02/2020 18:39

My line-manager emailed everyone in the office last week to say she was non-binary and we should use they/them pro-nouns.
Today I inadvertently called her she in an email to a colleague in another office, but line-manager was copied in, plus her line-manager. Are you keeping up? Confused
My line-manager responded to the email and added at the bottom a reminder about her pro-nouns.
I do not believe in the gender identity ideology and so object to being told to speak in an unnatural and incorrect way, but what I am incandescent about is being called out in front of 2 other colleagues.
Am I over reacting?

OP posts:
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SpinningTooFastWantToGetOff · 08/02/2020 20:45

no, it's not up to us. That is exactly the problem. We do not have a free choice about whether to call men "she" or women "he" or whatever they order us to call them.
...
If we can't afford to lose our jobs, reduce our employability or be arrested, it is not up to us what we 'choose'.

My choice would be to carry on as a hard working, loyal, engaged, productive employee of my organisation in the same manner as I have for the past six years.
Now, due to a decision by a colleague, I have to check my speech and my email communications or else I risk being outed by the gender fascists.
My DS said today that I shouldn't challenge this in the way I was planning, he said they will go after you and they will get you as the organisation will be on their side 😔

OP posts:
Eckhart · 08/02/2020 20:53

Have you spoken to HR, OP, to see where the organisation you work for stands on this officially? It might be that you feel there's a threat to your job when actually the threat may only be that your Line Manager would be personally offended.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 08/02/2020 20:55

I love how the counterargument has evolved to "Look, you don't have to, it's just that there will be consequences if you're disrespectful".

Because that's not sinister and doesn't sound like bullying at all!

Eckhart · 08/02/2020 21:07

Yes, the consequences may merely be offending someone, which isn't sinister or bullying. It would be sinister and bullying if the consequences were loss of job or similar.

Since we don't know, let's see if OP has checked or not.

SpinningTooFastWantToGetOff · 08/02/2020 21:25

Maybe I should talk to HR on Monday. Maybe speak to my union too but I don't think they would back me. 33 years in the union and they will shaft me too.
I feel really fed up with this, I have been so stressed over past month with this situation- before she even declared her specialness- not sleeping, worrying. DH and DC v supportive but getting fed up with topic as I go over and over it at home. And now this is the final insult 😥

OP posts:
Eckhart · 08/02/2020 21:28

She sounds crap anyway, aside from this issue. Have you raised any of the other stuff with her superiors? Somebody needs to say something. It can't just be you she's managing poorly.

Barracker · 08/02/2020 21:33

Recognising a person's sex isn't sinister, bullying, or offensive. It's instinctive.

Trying to compel people to pretend they cannot perceive a person's sex, and implying or threatening consequences for people who will not or cannot submit to your unreasonable demand, is extremely sinister.

Like it or not, English is a language with sexed pronouns, and natural uninhibited conversation about specific people references their sex.
There is no offence in this. The recognition of sex is a neutral act. The referencing of that sex in the natural flow of language is a neutral act. There is no insult and no disrespect involved.

Binterested · 08/02/2020 21:34

You know how this will go though. She’s uttered some magic words and those words send HR into rabbit in headlights territory. The only thing they can do is beseech you not to be mean. And then maybe fire you for harassment.

We know from Maya etc how this all goes.

NotBadConsidering · 08/02/2020 21:41

But that just highlights the madness of it all doesn’t it, checking with superiors?

The OP has to check with her superiors to determine if she’s at risk of losing her job for using the English language the way she has done for her entire life because someone in the workplace has self-determined their specialness.

That’s the stage we are at, having to even clarify is remarkable.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 08/02/2020 21:44

Barracker StarStarStar

Thank you for saving everyone from my less articulate very angry response to
a space that fits my needs

Eckhart · 08/02/2020 21:49

'We've always used language in this way' isn't a good argument. Language changes and acceptable things become massively unacceptable forevermore. Maybe this is happening here, maybe not. But there is always a 'But we've always spoken like this!' lobby, either way.

Datun · 08/02/2020 21:53

If you're worried about HR, I might let them know that given there are 100 different genders (this instantly delegitimises this woman), gender ideology is not something you subscribe to.

But because you acknowledging reality means you are forced into a position where people could consider you disrespectful, you intend to avoid the situation as much as possible.

And then simply not refer to the woman with any pronoun at all.

It's a fudge. But you are, given the current climate and you not wanting to lose your job, between a rock and a hard place.

saraclara · 08/02/2020 21:57

And now this is the final insult

How is this being asked to use a preferred pronoun, an insult?

NotBadConsidering · 08/02/2020 21:57

'We've always used language in this way' isn't a good argument. Language changes and acceptable things become massively unacceptable forevermore

But pronouns evolved naturally and are massively important because speaking or writing nouns only is incredibly confusing. I refuse to believe we are “evolving” back to a state of more difficult language. We are being pressured to a state of more difficult language for reasons that vary from narcissism to attacks on safeguarding.

Datun · 08/02/2020 22:01

How is this being asked to use a preferred pronoun, an insult?

Because if you don't believe in gender ideology it's insulting to have to pretend you do.

Eckhart · 08/02/2020 22:01

You might be right, NotBadConsidering. It depends if this takes off, and becomes the new norm, I suppose.

Binterested · 08/02/2020 22:08

It was the norm to call women by their husbands’ names and slaves by the names of their owners. Since people cannot change sex I will not be indicating with my speech that I think they can. Or that there is such a thing as non binary which - as well as being nonsense - frames women as having voluntarily identified into their own oppression.

SpinningTooFastWantToGetOff · 08/02/2020 22:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NotBadConsidering · 08/02/2020 22:25

It depends if this takes off, and becomes the new norm, I suppose.

Well, if everyone keeps shrugging their shoulders and saying “what does it cost you?” or take a similar attitude to you it might become the norm. Alternatively people can robustly protest at having language controlled for the benefit of a few.

popehilarious · 08/02/2020 22:26

If you're worried about HR, I might let them know that given there are 100 different genders (this instantly delegitimises this woman), gender ideology is not something you subscribe to.

This. I think I'd let HR know that personally you think stating one is 'non-binary' implies the existence of a gender binary, which you find offensive.
aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

(Thanks to TinselAngel who linked this)

As I said on another thread, if someone said their race was 'neither black nor white' that'd seem very dismissive of other races.

CharlieParley · 08/02/2020 22:27

How is this being asked to use a preferred pronoun, an insult?

In the same way that insisting non-believers participate in the religious greetings common to some religious communities is an insult and disrespectful to the non-believer.

I do not believe in transgender ideology. Instructing me to participate in the quasi-religious practices of an adherent to transgender ideology is an imposition. It violates my rights and it shows utter disrespect to my beliefs. The person insisting that I espouse their belief - contemptuously expecting me to do so regardless of my own personal beliefs - is manoeuvring him- or herself into an unacceptable position of assumed power over me by attempting to control my speech.

Well, no. I'm not participating.

Much as I refused to "greet god" when I was 17 and an obnoxious Bavarian man insisted I show him due deference by using his religious greeting. I didn't do it then and I'm not doing it now.

Eckhart · 08/02/2020 22:29

NotBadConsidering It's best if our use of language keeps minorities oppressed, you mean?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 08/02/2020 22:47

You know what fits my needs? Female only spaces to pee, change clothes, and bathe in. I would love an explanation of why my needs matter less than those of the person posting about how very important it is that their needs be met at my expense. And also why rejection of males in women's spaces needs to be "universal" in order to matter. How many females is one male worth, needs or feelings wise? Is it 10? 50? 100? Infinity?

CharlieParley · 08/02/2020 22:54

It's best if our use of language keeps minorities oppressed, you mean?

Do you understand what oppression is and how it functions, Eckhart?

Would you be able to explain how non-binary people are oppressed by me refusing to participate in their belief about themselves in their absence?

namewhatname · 08/02/2020 22:55

Language changes and acceptable things become massively unacceptable forevermore. Maybe this is happening here, maybe not. Are you missing the point because it's not clear enough or doing so because you want to?

The demand for misuse of pronouns is only part of the problem. That Spinning is being told to deny reality and with significant risk to her livelihood because her LM's ego is the size of Jupiter, and that this is just one more example of compelled speech are very good reasons why this kind of creeping rot must stop now.

How is this being asked to use a preferred pronoun, an insult? In essence it's being told everything you know is wrong, reality no longer exists, and that feelings are more important than the physical presence of the LM is secondary to whatever is going on in her head. That what YOU know means fuck all. Insulted yet?

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