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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

This is a conversation I had on a dating site

124 replies

FrenchtoEnglish · 03/02/2020 14:46

So, I've been dipping my toes into the waters of OLD. I saw one bloke, lives near me, speaks English (I'm in France). Got chatting. He's a big, bald, rugby player (not really relevant, but just to give you a picture). He said "Let's talk about gender". This is the conversation that followed:

Me: Why do you want to talk about gender? Do you mean male/female traits as a social construct? I'll talk about that with you if you want. Or do you mean something totally different and I've completely missed the point? :-)

Him: Hi! Yes, pretty much. I just feel it’s worthwhile mentioning from the off that I don’t believe either gender has to conform to any particular gender stereotyping. I don’t buy into men having to always be macho. I’m 100% for this greater acceptance of men wearing dresses/make up, etc. I feel gender fluid myself, so I just thought it makes a better ice breaker than what’s your favourite type of pizza!

I also don’t feel women should feel any need to conform to any beauty stereotype either. We’re sold beauty and fashion and expectation from everywhere. I suppose I just want everybody to feel happy in who they are and not have to answer for or pass apology for it.

And finally, I don’t think it’s fair to feel this way and not immediately discuss it on a dating site.

Me: I agree with you! I think that if people were more gender fluid... or we even tried to get rid of gender all together... then we'd all be better off. It is a very complexe issue though and we're a long way from that. I see myself as a feminist... and I have to admit that I do feel that the idea of people self-identifying as men or women might cause problems in the future. Men wearing dresses and make-up or women wearing their hair short and driving a digger is all fine by me... but men "changing sex" (with or without an operation) and then entering women's safe spaces or sporting competitions could get problematic. It's a huge topic of conversation! I just feel as though I don't want what women have fought for to be blocked or hindered in any way. I also don't know what it means to "feel" like a woman. This is a problem for me. Being a woman is being a female, adult human. It's having the XX chromosomes and a vagina/uterus. I don't think we have different brains. I also don't think that children should be encouraged in school to define themselves as a particular gender... I think we're on a slippery slope. I also don't want to have to refer to myself as a "cis-woman" or have to change my language... Anyway, it's a massive topic! But an interesting one!

Him: I would suggest that if men want to enter women’s safe spaces to threaten them, they don’t need to wear a dress to do so. Also, would you not think that providing a safe space to people of an alternative to the binary of gender stereotyping is as important? Would a man who identifies as female, and wears a dress and makeup, etc., not be as equally endangered if not more so if not allowed into certain safe spaces? Your not wanting to refer to yourself as cis-woman belies the privilege you hold and doesn’t make any consideration for those who need the recognition to explain to society what their label means. A trans woman is expected to say she is a trans woman and is held to much higher beauty standards than cis-women. If you’re saying that all women (trans or cis) should be able to just use the title “woman”, I agree with you, but society hasn’t caught up yet which is why referring to ones-self as cis shows compassion, understanding, tolerance and acceptance to those who are not born biologically female. It’s important to understand that no one trans chooses to be trans. And “adult human female” is a trope used by all TERFs to validate their denial of equal rights to trans women. I notice that there is no argument from men about trans men in their spaces and no argument from women about providing support for trans men. It is a massive topic like you say, and I fear we are on very different sides of this history so I’ll say good luck and good bye to you now.

SO.......

I'm not that well-versed on this subject. I have mild opinions, I think (because it's never really effected me). The only thing I feel strongly about is protecting my daughter. I want to raise a capable, strong woman who knows what she wants and will be supported by me. But, after this little episode, I feel a bit weirded out. I do my very best not to gender stereotype (no pink ironing boards for my daughter in this house) and to teach my daughter that she can do anything... and this is the first time I've ever come across anything like this IRL.

WWYD ? Reply to him or not ? He's made me feel a bit anxious to be honest.

OP posts:
isthispuddinoramalang · 03/02/2020 21:41

"Bye then."

Muststopfaffing · 03/02/2020 22:08

Huh. When I did OLD, now DH asked me (having noted my interest in music): “Which musician would you bring back from the dead and why?”

I’d struggle not to reply. I’ve never been very good at keeping quiet even when I should. But I think pp are right. Don’t reply, chalk it up as a near miss...but enjoy coming up with all sorts of withering responses that leave him standing.

Any yes, you’ve been gaslit. Big time. That socialisation again eh?

Iggypoppie · 04/02/2020 16:48

@CousinKrispy I saw some male ducks do something that would need a trigger warning on here. Really affected me.

Beamur · 04/02/2020 16:55

This guy is both unusually clued up on this issue and bursting with self importance about it.
I reckon the other posters on here are right to suggest he's a cross dresser seeking a compliant female partner.
I'd not reply or just send a short, bland exit goodbye and don't engage further.
You're probably better off with a French farmer.

Redyellowpink · 04/02/2020 16:58

I'm as "woke" as they come around here! I'm a vegan, commie, feminist philosophy graduate who runs a charity shop, FFS! I have 13 homeless animals living with me, I'm running a book fair for kids. I'm as do-goody as it gets! I annoy myself with it all!

OP I wanna date you!

Seriously though, I empathise massively, OLD is the worse

CrazyToast · 04/02/2020 19:51

It's highly suspect that this is the first thing he said. He has an agenda and is likely a woke bro. Not sure what you are looking for, but most likely a bullet dodged.

PermanentTemporary · 04/02/2020 20:47

To be fair to him, he's been articulate and I'm sure he thinks he's been polite though I feel overwhelmed by his message and I didn't receive it. My experience of OLD is that people can live in your head for a surprisingly long time, and if you are so far apart it's futile. Don't reply, block and leave it.

Sarcelle · 04/02/2020 20:57

I have seem an attempted rape by two Male ducks on a female duck. It was in St James Park, very violent. They were holding the poor duck down by the neck. My DH climbed over a railing and stopped it. He got a round of applause from some tourists. The poor female had a very bloodied neck. It was horrible. I have seen several other attempts, not as violent because the females got away. Apparently at the end of mating season the males ducks who have not managed to find a female partner, pair up and basically gang rape. I love ducks, but this made me look at them very differently.

I digress....

Themyscira · 04/02/2020 21:05

I've come across this bald, hulking rugby playing type before. Guaran-damn-tee he's a crossdresser looking to amp up his antics, or at least wank to conversations online about it all. Luckily for you this one was also a pompous ass. Ignore and block.

Imbo1c · 04/02/2020 21:08

at best, a mansplainer at worst I'd say WARNING you that he is an autogynophile.

FrenchtoEnglish · 04/02/2020 21:23

Cheers everyone! You've all been ace. I could have done without the duck nightmares (but they're a slight improvement on the peggy dick nightmares!) ;-) I haven't replied to him. I think I'll leave it for a while. I've been doing alright on my own. I do have a lot of questions in my head now though. I'll be visiting this board more often. You're all so much more clued-up than I am on this subject and if this is something that's on the rise (is it?), then I need to get my head around it. But slowly! I do have empathy for anyone who has body dysmorphia or who is affected by something so traumatic... but I'd be really interested to know what sort of ideas are out there that could provide a solution to trans people in need/danger/distress without impacting on women's rights. I did feel quite shaken that someone could tell me I'm insensitive for not agreeing to call myself a cis-woman. It's got to me more than I thought it would. It feels like if I ever said that to anyone in a public setting that I'd be accused of being transphobic. Like it's a dirty secret. And I'm not having that.

OP posts:
BuzzShitbagBobbly · 04/02/2020 21:38

It feels like if I ever said that to anyone in a public setting that I'd be accused of being transphobic

That's where it's got to. The transgender ideology extremists have taken something perhaps genuinely suffered by a very few people and turned it into a topic that is so completely radioactive you have to agree with every single word they utter; or they'll launch the "transphobe!" slur at you to scare you into silence.

For wanting to check women's rights are ok, you'll be called a bigot and a terf. For daring question any aspect - inc being called "cis" against your will, you will be hounded and possibly doxxed to get you fired from your job.

These pages prove it all.

FebruaryRainandSleet · 04/02/2020 21:42

I think I'd have to reply, 'On second thoughts, let's talk about my favourite pizza...'

PityParty4one · 04/02/2020 21:46

Run

Egghead01 · 04/02/2020 22:04

OP, you are indeed being accused of a nasty ‘ism’ - feminism.

Nowadays recognising women's biological vulnerabilities is considered unacceptable. Even defining ourselves in a way that excludes males is not-nice.

Fantastic about your animals - the good news though is that they are surely not homeless now! You are giving them a home, what a wonderful thing to do. You don’t need to give a home to an angry rugby player in a dress too!

VaggieMight · 04/02/2020 22:15

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at poster's request.

LuluJakey1 · 04/02/2020 22:26

He just needs to take his pompous, patronising ego and fuck-off with it.

TeiTetua · 04/02/2020 23:29

Whatever one's suspicions are, I still think it's best not to be rude. I'd say, "Thanks for sharing, but I don't see this going anywhere. Good luck in your search."

And I too have seen ducks doing some distressing things. Almost human, in fact.

StrangeLookingParasite · 05/02/2020 00:30

The transgender ideology extremists have taken something perhaps genuinely suffered by a very few people and turned it into a topic that is so completely radioactive you have to agree with every single word they utter; or they'll launch the "transphobe!" slur at you to scare you into silence.

I've got to the point where I just think, 'oh, the clouds in the sky are transphobic' (everything else is). It's become completely meaningless to me, like when you say a word too many times and it turns into a non-word.

bettybeans · 05/02/2020 00:34

He’s either a cross dresser with a copy and paste justification playbook or he’s catfishing with a photo that he will later explain shows his ‘old self’ with ‘new self’ being a completely different human being altogether. I’d put cash on the pic being a total nonsense. Either way RUN RUN as fast as you can because most importantly he’s clearly a tosser. He’s there to find a very specific kind of woman and a thinking one clearly isn’t his bag.

BatShite · 05/02/2020 01:40

Run like the wind. Almost certainly a MRA. The word TERF along with pure disregard for womens safety, plus the 'men dont care about transmen' argument, without any thinking about why that may be..red flags everywhere.

Chiochan · 06/02/2020 00:09

A year or so ago I too would have been mortified at any 'ism' being thrown my way. Was deeply uncomfortable with being thought of as unkind. Basically not being nice, even if the circumstances were crying out for it, felt almost dangerous.
Well fuck that now. Believe me when I say that constant hysterical accusations have immunised me in a way I would have scarsly thought possible.
I dont think Im the only one either.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 06/02/2020 00:41

Yeah, the thing about publicly demonstrating the fact that as a group you tend to be a bit unreasonable is that many people then stop caring whether or not you're angry about something they've said.

EHopes · 06/02/2020 09:32

Arsehole cross dressing mansplaiming jerk.

That's quite an impressive amount of words he used to let you know that he's a shit.

Block.

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