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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

This is a conversation I had on a dating site

124 replies

FrenchtoEnglish · 03/02/2020 14:46

So, I've been dipping my toes into the waters of OLD. I saw one bloke, lives near me, speaks English (I'm in France). Got chatting. He's a big, bald, rugby player (not really relevant, but just to give you a picture). He said "Let's talk about gender". This is the conversation that followed:

Me: Why do you want to talk about gender? Do you mean male/female traits as a social construct? I'll talk about that with you if you want. Or do you mean something totally different and I've completely missed the point? :-)

Him: Hi! Yes, pretty much. I just feel it’s worthwhile mentioning from the off that I don’t believe either gender has to conform to any particular gender stereotyping. I don’t buy into men having to always be macho. I’m 100% for this greater acceptance of men wearing dresses/make up, etc. I feel gender fluid myself, so I just thought it makes a better ice breaker than what’s your favourite type of pizza!

I also don’t feel women should feel any need to conform to any beauty stereotype either. We’re sold beauty and fashion and expectation from everywhere. I suppose I just want everybody to feel happy in who they are and not have to answer for or pass apology for it.

And finally, I don’t think it’s fair to feel this way and not immediately discuss it on a dating site.

Me: I agree with you! I think that if people were more gender fluid... or we even tried to get rid of gender all together... then we'd all be better off. It is a very complexe issue though and we're a long way from that. I see myself as a feminist... and I have to admit that I do feel that the idea of people self-identifying as men or women might cause problems in the future. Men wearing dresses and make-up or women wearing their hair short and driving a digger is all fine by me... but men "changing sex" (with or without an operation) and then entering women's safe spaces or sporting competitions could get problematic. It's a huge topic of conversation! I just feel as though I don't want what women have fought for to be blocked or hindered in any way. I also don't know what it means to "feel" like a woman. This is a problem for me. Being a woman is being a female, adult human. It's having the XX chromosomes and a vagina/uterus. I don't think we have different brains. I also don't think that children should be encouraged in school to define themselves as a particular gender... I think we're on a slippery slope. I also don't want to have to refer to myself as a "cis-woman" or have to change my language... Anyway, it's a massive topic! But an interesting one!

Him: I would suggest that if men want to enter women’s safe spaces to threaten them, they don’t need to wear a dress to do so. Also, would you not think that providing a safe space to people of an alternative to the binary of gender stereotyping is as important? Would a man who identifies as female, and wears a dress and makeup, etc., not be as equally endangered if not more so if not allowed into certain safe spaces? Your not wanting to refer to yourself as cis-woman belies the privilege you hold and doesn’t make any consideration for those who need the recognition to explain to society what their label means. A trans woman is expected to say she is a trans woman and is held to much higher beauty standards than cis-women. If you’re saying that all women (trans or cis) should be able to just use the title “woman”, I agree with you, but society hasn’t caught up yet which is why referring to ones-self as cis shows compassion, understanding, tolerance and acceptance to those who are not born biologically female. It’s important to understand that no one trans chooses to be trans. And “adult human female” is a trope used by all TERFs to validate their denial of equal rights to trans women. I notice that there is no argument from men about trans men in their spaces and no argument from women about providing support for trans men. It is a massive topic like you say, and I fear we are on very different sides of this history so I’ll say good luck and good bye to you now.

SO.......

I'm not that well-versed on this subject. I have mild opinions, I think (because it's never really effected me). The only thing I feel strongly about is protecting my daughter. I want to raise a capable, strong woman who knows what she wants and will be supported by me. But, after this little episode, I feel a bit weirded out. I do my very best not to gender stereotype (no pink ironing boards for my daughter in this house) and to teach my daughter that she can do anything... and this is the first time I've ever come across anything like this IRL.

WWYD ? Reply to him or not ? He's made me feel a bit anxious to be honest.

OP posts:
Juliette20 · 03/02/2020 15:34

Just reply "Sounds like I've had a lucky escape. Goodbye". And block.

AvocadoAdvocate · 03/02/2020 15:36

He's fishing for a hetero woman who would be happy to date a self identified trans woman (apparently such women are in very short supply).

PatellarTendonitis · 03/02/2020 15:41

I'd text him back, XY = it's a guy and then block.

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 03/02/2020 15:41

Block and move on..

Would a man who identifies as female, and wears a dress and makeup, etc., not be as equally endangered if not more so if not allowed into certain safe spaces?

Forgetting that the reason they are safe spaces is that it's because males, who commit most assaults, are excluded.. once you let males in, what's to stop any male coming in..

It's just a massive logic fail

Sarcelle · 03/02/2020 15:43

The average guy in the street would not be able to argue in such depth about the issue. He can argue about it because he is invested in the issue. He's looking for Miss Right, and expecting you to as well. Lucky escape.

Sexnotgender · 03/02/2020 15:45

He's fishing for a hetero woman who would be happy to date a self identified trans woman

This.

Otherwise WHY would you bring this up? What other reason could he have?

Have you even actually met him?

What a fucking weirdo.

AbsintheFriends · 03/02/2020 15:47

Reading his messages again I definitely think he has a personal axe to grind (what a phallic metaphor...) It's in every line, but particularly the bit about trans women being held to greater beauty standards (Hmm) and 'no one chooses to be trans'.

I totally get the not wanting to let him have the last word. How about saying something along the lines of 'Absolutely agree that we're not compatible but I wish you well in your search for acceptance. Go well.'

sugarbum · 03/02/2020 15:47

Christ, what happened to I like cinema trips and walks in the park with the dog?!!

But seriously. Don't go there. For all the reasons stated above.

littlbrowndog · 03/02/2020 15:48

Go well 😂😂

Just say that.

Lucky escape.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 03/02/2020 15:50

He strong you along deliberately to push you off the cliff of his own self-righteousness.

What a dick. Bin him off immediately. He will turn into a grade A cunt in no short order.

womaninblue · 03/02/2020 15:56

He's preparing you for the fact that he's a cross-dresser or autogynophile at the very least, that he expects to accompany you to the women's loos and facilities and that your opinion doesn't count. I'd say 'Thanks for being upfront about your fetish. I'm looking for a man who respects women, their spaces and their opinions so it's a no from me.' And then block him.

CoffeeCoinneseur · 03/02/2020 15:56

He's looking for Miss Right

Or Cis Right

Don't even give him the satisfaction of a response. Just block.

thickwoollytights · 03/02/2020 16:00

We're clearly not meant to be, but I don't want him to think he's got the better of me.

Choose your arguments

Let this one go and block him

He's a dick

NearlyGranny · 03/02/2020 16:11

Hmm, he would have lost me at 'cis'. And why should all women put their safety (from potential ill-intentioned males) second to the safety of a tiny minority of transwomen (from more potential ill-intentioned males)? If the issue is potential risk from predatory and sexually violent men, why is it our problem to fix? It's not our behaviour.

nauticant · 03/02/2020 16:13

Go for a brush off answer OP. Polite but clear that you're done communicating with him.

Appearing to engage will just see you enmeshed. Don't get drawn in to a pointless discussion.

slipperywhensparticus · 03/02/2020 16:20

Reverse image search his picture I doubt he is real he sounds too bot like

Fucking "cis privilege" I demand my rights to be demeaned! Accuse me now of baby brain! Pay me less for doing more hours! Respect me not!

Datun · 03/02/2020 16:21

Ignore and block.

Although you might want the last word, ignoring this sort of behaviour can get very addictive.

You absolutely retain the control.

EoinMcLovesCakeJumper · 03/02/2020 16:25

How did you resist the urge to track him down and roger him senseless, OP? I know that condescending tripe laced with misogynistic insults always gets me in the mood.

I totally get why you wouldn't want to let him have the last word, and also I'm not very mature, so I would probably send a brief "looks like I've dodged a bullet" or "if you say so", and then block him.

donquixotedelamancha · 03/02/2020 16:26

Yeah I wouldn't poke the angry ruby player bear given that he lives near you.

This. He has not got the better of you- he's given us all a laugh at how cringey he is.

ShesGotBetteDavisEyes · 03/02/2020 16:27

I agree you are very lucky he brought this up now - thank god you didn’t waste any time on him.

YY to op who said you should send back “yes we clearly have differing views and I’m glad you raised this, good luck” That way you won’t upset him (in case he’s a nutter) but you’ve had the last word (and made it clear you think he is a nutter)

Lordamighty · 03/02/2020 16:29

I didn’t read it all sorry, he’s a cross dresser & is testing your boundaries.
Don’t worry about getting the last word, no reply would be the best response.

sawdustformypony · 03/02/2020 16:32

Was he elated by the game in Paris on Sunday over the english. That Shaun Edwards eh ? He knows his stuff.

Michelleoftheresistance · 03/02/2020 16:33

Dating is supposed to be a fun, pleasant experience, and is generally successful with someone who is interested in you, fun to be around and respects you/female people in general.

He's making you anxious and you haven't even met him yet. The hills are that way, I'll hold your coat. You deserve better than this!

deydododatdodontdeydo · 03/02/2020 16:40

Is he a rugby player or a lumberjack?
Seriously, is this how people converse on OLD sites? I imagined it would be all dick pics and sleazy flirting.

popehilarious · 03/02/2020 16:41

I'd reply " the fact you thought a trans woman had to wear a dress to enter female spaces shows you actually do still rely on sex stereotypes with regards to appearances. I was hoping you were a bit more progressive than that, so I'll say goodbye now."