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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

This is a conversation I had on a dating site

124 replies

FrenchtoEnglish · 03/02/2020 14:46

So, I've been dipping my toes into the waters of OLD. I saw one bloke, lives near me, speaks English (I'm in France). Got chatting. He's a big, bald, rugby player (not really relevant, but just to give you a picture). He said "Let's talk about gender". This is the conversation that followed:

Me: Why do you want to talk about gender? Do you mean male/female traits as a social construct? I'll talk about that with you if you want. Or do you mean something totally different and I've completely missed the point? :-)

Him: Hi! Yes, pretty much. I just feel it’s worthwhile mentioning from the off that I don’t believe either gender has to conform to any particular gender stereotyping. I don’t buy into men having to always be macho. I’m 100% for this greater acceptance of men wearing dresses/make up, etc. I feel gender fluid myself, so I just thought it makes a better ice breaker than what’s your favourite type of pizza!

I also don’t feel women should feel any need to conform to any beauty stereotype either. We’re sold beauty and fashion and expectation from everywhere. I suppose I just want everybody to feel happy in who they are and not have to answer for or pass apology for it.

And finally, I don’t think it’s fair to feel this way and not immediately discuss it on a dating site.

Me: I agree with you! I think that if people were more gender fluid... or we even tried to get rid of gender all together... then we'd all be better off. It is a very complexe issue though and we're a long way from that. I see myself as a feminist... and I have to admit that I do feel that the idea of people self-identifying as men or women might cause problems in the future. Men wearing dresses and make-up or women wearing their hair short and driving a digger is all fine by me... but men "changing sex" (with or without an operation) and then entering women's safe spaces or sporting competitions could get problematic. It's a huge topic of conversation! I just feel as though I don't want what women have fought for to be blocked or hindered in any way. I also don't know what it means to "feel" like a woman. This is a problem for me. Being a woman is being a female, adult human. It's having the XX chromosomes and a vagina/uterus. I don't think we have different brains. I also don't think that children should be encouraged in school to define themselves as a particular gender... I think we're on a slippery slope. I also don't want to have to refer to myself as a "cis-woman" or have to change my language... Anyway, it's a massive topic! But an interesting one!

Him: I would suggest that if men want to enter women’s safe spaces to threaten them, they don’t need to wear a dress to do so. Also, would you not think that providing a safe space to people of an alternative to the binary of gender stereotyping is as important? Would a man who identifies as female, and wears a dress and makeup, etc., not be as equally endangered if not more so if not allowed into certain safe spaces? Your not wanting to refer to yourself as cis-woman belies the privilege you hold and doesn’t make any consideration for those who need the recognition to explain to society what their label means. A trans woman is expected to say she is a trans woman and is held to much higher beauty standards than cis-women. If you’re saying that all women (trans or cis) should be able to just use the title “woman”, I agree with you, but society hasn’t caught up yet which is why referring to ones-self as cis shows compassion, understanding, tolerance and acceptance to those who are not born biologically female. It’s important to understand that no one trans chooses to be trans. And “adult human female” is a trope used by all TERFs to validate their denial of equal rights to trans women. I notice that there is no argument from men about trans men in their spaces and no argument from women about providing support for trans men. It is a massive topic like you say, and I fear we are on very different sides of this history so I’ll say good luck and good bye to you now.

SO.......

I'm not that well-versed on this subject. I have mild opinions, I think (because it's never really effected me). The only thing I feel strongly about is protecting my daughter. I want to raise a capable, strong woman who knows what she wants and will be supported by me. But, after this little episode, I feel a bit weirded out. I do my very best not to gender stereotype (no pink ironing boards for my daughter in this house) and to teach my daughter that she can do anything... and this is the first time I've ever come across anything like this IRL.

WWYD ? Reply to him or not ? He's made me feel a bit anxious to be honest.

OP posts:
jadefinch · 03/02/2020 16:41

I think his comment starts off worthy of a debate: 'If men want to enter women’s safe spaces to threaten them, they don’t need to wear a dress to do so.'

Yes that's true, but that doesn't justify making it easier for them. Most paedophiles don't need to be primary school teachers to get access to children, but we wouldn't therefore allow any adult access to primary schools.

But it then quickly descends into something quite disturbing. There is a lot of evidence that women are more at risk than transwomen, which he doesn't seem to care about, but he then reveals himself to be an angry MRA:

'your not wanting to refer to yourself as cis-woman belies the privilege you hold ... A trans woman is expected to say she is a trans woman and is held to much higher beauty standards than cis-women ... Referring to ones-self as cis shows compassion, understanding, tolerance and acceptance ... “adult human female” is a trope used by all TERFs to validate their denial of equal rights to trans women. I notice that there is no argument from men about trans men in their spaces'.

In the end it doesn't really matter as he says goodbye. Judging from his comments, I suspect he's either a TRA in the texts and a TERF in the sheets, or he's a gay man looking for a transwoman

SweetpeaOrMarigold · 03/02/2020 16:44

That is the strangest OLD chat I've ever seen. I feel he is just out to lecture.

soloula · 03/02/2020 16:48

Lucky escape OP

Icantreachthepretzels · 03/02/2020 16:49

I almost don't want him to have the last word. I'm a bit cross

Send him a link to this thread and then block.

But not if you're worried he might be a nutter.

lydiamajora · 03/02/2020 16:49

“yes we clearly have differing views and I’m glad you raised this, good luck”

This. Then block in case he has a problem taking thanks-but-no-thanks for an answer.

It sucks because if you are in the middle of nowhere the pickings are slim, but IMO it is better to be single than to be in a relationship with a condescending jackass. I've blocked for a hell of a lot less.

OhWhatFuckeryIsThisNow · 03/02/2020 17:05

Doesn’t every woman want a big rugby player to teach her the truth about gender?

This is a conversation I had on a  dating site
DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 03/02/2020 17:08

Unless you desperately want to be the Domme in this dude’s sissification fantasy I would recommend blocking and as PP say, being thankful this came out now rather than later!

Sarcelle · 03/02/2020 17:14

@lydiamajora I reckon Op has more success than he does. If her location has slim pickings for her, you can imagine his chances with his particular wish list! Bonne chance to him!!!!

andyoldlabour · 03/02/2020 17:15

OP, you should have asked the guy if he would date and sleep with a transwoman, see what his answer would be.

titchy · 03/02/2020 17:25

OP, you should have asked the guy if he would date and sleep with a transwoman, see what his answer would be.

Actually why don't you reply:
' That's amazing. I very rarely come out with this at the beginning of a conversation with someone, but I'm actually a transwomen (saving up for that op!!!) and it's so refreshing to finally meet someone who accepts me as a woman despite my genitals. Let's carry on this chat over dinner (and who knows what else?! ) next week'

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 03/02/2020 17:28

Many men with AGP are also attracted to others with AGP, according to Blanchard, so I dunno that I'd advise that.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 03/02/2020 17:29

AGPs are often GAMPs so that’s a risky strategy!

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26498424/

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 03/02/2020 17:30

Jinx!

FrenchtoEnglish · 03/02/2020 17:33

The reason I don't really want to respond is, as some posters have also noted, he's a big burly rugby player. As a woman, this makes me a bit scared. I feel as my power has been taken away. Perhaps I shouldn't dignify him with a response... because it IS pointless... but I'd be a bit worried about doing so anyway... in case he tracked me down... because wig or no wig... he'd be better in a fight. Isn't that the point? I've loosely followed this debate... known my gut feelings on it... but never really thought it would impact be. Now it has, albeit very lightly, and I'm effing livid. I'm going full-on rad for the sake of my daughter.

OP posts:
tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 03/02/2020 17:36

Crikey, and this is him flirting Confused
Agree ignore and move on.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 03/02/2020 17:36

I don't blame you, I'd be very irritated if this came up in the context too. I guess it proves that even if you'd like to avoid this whole issue you really can't in the long run, since it's impinging on so many different aspects of women's lives.

Again though, I totally get the urge to go "and another thing!" but given the strength differential it's smarter to just leave it (and vent to us, and your friends).

Barracker · 03/02/2020 17:41

Lucky escape.

I suggest:

"We're definitely not compatible based upon our differing views on what women are.
However I have a friend I discuss this subject with all the time. She is a pre-op transwoman who rejects the higher beauty standards she feels she is subject to, like shaving her beard or waxing her testicles. I just KNOW you would get along like a house on fire, you sound perfect for each other. I showed her your photo and shared your open-minded opinions about accepting transwomen regardless of their bodies and grooming. She thinks you are gorgeous.

Shall I give her your details?"

thirdfiddle · 03/02/2020 18:02

Love it barracker!

popehilarious · 03/02/2020 18:06

It's usually easy to out-woke the woke. And quite fun. Just point out what a REALLY woke person would find offensive in his message.

FemaleAndLearning · 03/02/2020 18:08

'which is why referring to ones-self as cis shows compassion, understanding, tolerance and acceptance to those who are not born biologically female'

What a load of rubbish I have lots of compassion, tolerance and am very accepting but I'm still not cis.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 03/02/2020 18:11

Barracker that's excellent Grin

BackToBackTheyFaced · 03/02/2020 18:15

Oh god! I mean any subject that earnestly and at length would be bad, but that load of old bollocks... well, saved you wasting your time I suppose.

ShesGotBetteDavisEyes · 03/02/2020 18:17

Grin perfect barracker - I wish you would send this OP - and then post his response on here!

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 03/02/2020 18:18

"Talk Butler to me, baby, that always puts me in the mood"

Said nobody trying to hook up on a dating app ever.

MashedSpud · 03/02/2020 18:25

Tell him to watch Dressed to Kill starring Michael Caine then block.