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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

This is a conversation I had on a dating site

124 replies

FrenchtoEnglish · 03/02/2020 14:46

So, I've been dipping my toes into the waters of OLD. I saw one bloke, lives near me, speaks English (I'm in France). Got chatting. He's a big, bald, rugby player (not really relevant, but just to give you a picture). He said "Let's talk about gender". This is the conversation that followed:

Me: Why do you want to talk about gender? Do you mean male/female traits as a social construct? I'll talk about that with you if you want. Or do you mean something totally different and I've completely missed the point? :-)

Him: Hi! Yes, pretty much. I just feel it’s worthwhile mentioning from the off that I don’t believe either gender has to conform to any particular gender stereotyping. I don’t buy into men having to always be macho. I’m 100% for this greater acceptance of men wearing dresses/make up, etc. I feel gender fluid myself, so I just thought it makes a better ice breaker than what’s your favourite type of pizza!

I also don’t feel women should feel any need to conform to any beauty stereotype either. We’re sold beauty and fashion and expectation from everywhere. I suppose I just want everybody to feel happy in who they are and not have to answer for or pass apology for it.

And finally, I don’t think it’s fair to feel this way and not immediately discuss it on a dating site.

Me: I agree with you! I think that if people were more gender fluid... or we even tried to get rid of gender all together... then we'd all be better off. It is a very complexe issue though and we're a long way from that. I see myself as a feminist... and I have to admit that I do feel that the idea of people self-identifying as men or women might cause problems in the future. Men wearing dresses and make-up or women wearing their hair short and driving a digger is all fine by me... but men "changing sex" (with or without an operation) and then entering women's safe spaces or sporting competitions could get problematic. It's a huge topic of conversation! I just feel as though I don't want what women have fought for to be blocked or hindered in any way. I also don't know what it means to "feel" like a woman. This is a problem for me. Being a woman is being a female, adult human. It's having the XX chromosomes and a vagina/uterus. I don't think we have different brains. I also don't think that children should be encouraged in school to define themselves as a particular gender... I think we're on a slippery slope. I also don't want to have to refer to myself as a "cis-woman" or have to change my language... Anyway, it's a massive topic! But an interesting one!

Him: I would suggest that if men want to enter women’s safe spaces to threaten them, they don’t need to wear a dress to do so. Also, would you not think that providing a safe space to people of an alternative to the binary of gender stereotyping is as important? Would a man who identifies as female, and wears a dress and makeup, etc., not be as equally endangered if not more so if not allowed into certain safe spaces? Your not wanting to refer to yourself as cis-woman belies the privilege you hold and doesn’t make any consideration for those who need the recognition to explain to society what their label means. A trans woman is expected to say she is a trans woman and is held to much higher beauty standards than cis-women. If you’re saying that all women (trans or cis) should be able to just use the title “woman”, I agree with you, but society hasn’t caught up yet which is why referring to ones-self as cis shows compassion, understanding, tolerance and acceptance to those who are not born biologically female. It’s important to understand that no one trans chooses to be trans. And “adult human female” is a trope used by all TERFs to validate their denial of equal rights to trans women. I notice that there is no argument from men about trans men in their spaces and no argument from women about providing support for trans men. It is a massive topic like you say, and I fear we are on very different sides of this history so I’ll say good luck and good bye to you now.

SO.......

I'm not that well-versed on this subject. I have mild opinions, I think (because it's never really effected me). The only thing I feel strongly about is protecting my daughter. I want to raise a capable, strong woman who knows what she wants and will be supported by me. But, after this little episode, I feel a bit weirded out. I do my very best not to gender stereotype (no pink ironing boards for my daughter in this house) and to teach my daughter that she can do anything... and this is the first time I've ever come across anything like this IRL.

WWYD ? Reply to him or not ? He's made me feel a bit anxious to be honest.

OP posts:
theflushedzebra · 03/02/2020 18:32

Barracker Grin Wine

OP, I can really why this has made you anxious - just reading his messages to you made me uncomfortable, and I'm reading it on Mumsnet.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he's a cross-dresser/AGP, and testing the water with his dates for an acceptance of this.

Don't feel you need to reply - you can just delete him and draw a line under it, just as you would any OLD that made you feel uncomfortable.

Any man that thinks it fine to call women TERFs would be out of my life so fast.... I would be tempted to type back, "well I suppose I am a bit of a TERF - a 'Twat Exclusive Real Feminist' - goodbye" but I probably wouldn't. Just fantasise about it Wink

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 03/02/2020 18:42

I agree that you shouldnt feel that you need to reply

Ignoring him would probably irritate him just as much as anything you can say

But otherwise i would just say ‘Goodbye’ short and sweet Grin

Thinkingabout1t · 03/02/2020 18:46

I wouldn’t give him one more moment’s thought. You dodged a bullet, OP.

SophocIestheFox · 03/02/2020 18:50

You should send back “you’re so right that we’re not compatible, I myself am non binary, and it’s clear from your preoccupation with transwomen that non binary identities don’t even register as being of concern to you . I suggest you educate yourself >

Wokemate!

(Or, in real life just text back the crying laughter face and block).

JoJoWasAManWhoThought · 03/02/2020 18:54

Avoid like the Plague!!!!!!

PaintedLadyInBlue · 03/02/2020 19:04

Wow, just block him. Quite apart from the fact that he wants to invade women’s spaces, he’s patronising, long winded and incoherent. Not too bright, but thinks he’s the bees knees.
Don’t engage, it would be a waste of your time & energy. He just wants an audience.

BelleWether · 03/02/2020 19:35

@FrenchtoEnglish He meant to say "Let's talk about gender... so that I can educate you on whats the proper way to think about this"

You dodged a bullet!

NeurotrashWarrior · 03/02/2020 20:14

Oh gawd, reminds me of a date I had with someone from an ad in an actual paper many years ago who it bloody turned out had done previous research on racial bias in dating ads. Which is worthy and interesting.

Except...

From start to finish the whole thing was about him and his life, during the telephone conversation I felt persuaded to meet up with him after his description of the racial bias research, to prove I wasn't a 'bigot.' Date was the same, not one question about me. It was all a lecture in the history of various rights, politics and and what a great dancer he was. I declined a further date based on literally feeling like I was a student being lectured.

A week later discovered my friend had also had date with him and had had exactly the same experience. Which was amusing.

Hope it's not some woke university research?!

NeurotrashWarrior · 03/02/2020 20:16

Sophocles 🤣

Workmate!

NeurotrashWarrior · 03/02/2020 20:16

Woke even...

NeurotrashWarrior · 03/02/2020 20:18

Lol barracker! Perfect!!!

KarenBelch24 · 03/02/2020 20:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 03/02/2020 20:40

See, I would want to encourage him to keep opening with this shite, so any woman with sense will know to run. And also, you don't want a stalker...

"Wow Mr sissy-lumberjack, thanks for your brave honesty, youve given me a lot to consider (I know, snicker). It really sounds like I'm not the girl for you, much respect, I'm sure you'll ~trap~ find her soon!"
BLOCK

Wallywobbles · 03/02/2020 20:49

His English is amazing. And he's more aware than any French man I've ever met.

FrenchtoEnglish · 03/02/2020 21:01

I think I AM going to leave it. I do feel a bit vulnerable living in the arse-end of nowhere with a little one. But, I would REALLY like to reply. Your comebacks have been great and I thank you all for helping me to calm down.

What a pain this whole OLD thing is. He was the first man not to start with a "Hi! How are you?" That's all I ever get! It's clearly just a standard message that the system sends out if people are "interested".

I think what pisses me off the most about the whole thing is that he's tried to make me feel like I'm some sort of bigot. I'm as "woke" as they come around here! I'm a vegan, commie, feminist philosophy graduate who runs a charity shop, FFS! I have 13 homeless animals living with me, I'm running a book fair for kids. I'm as do-goody as it gets! I annoy myself with it all! And yet, I'm supposed to feel like some sort of right-wing pillock who doesn't want to include vulnerable people in society. That's what's annoyed me. I feel as if I've woken up in some weird world where I'm being accused of an "ism".

I admit that I didn't understand some of the abbreviations on here and had to look some of them up. It's been an eye-opener. I'll come back to this board and read some of the threads. I think this is a bigger deal than I ever thought it was.

OP posts:
FrenchtoEnglish · 03/02/2020 21:05

@Wallywobbles Sorry, he's a native English speaker living in France. That's why I initially thought he'd be interesting to talk to! The French men around here are a bit more "Men drive tractors, women make cake and look pretty." ;-)

OP posts:
NeurotrashWarrior · 03/02/2020 21:12

He's outright gaslit you and yes, tried to make you doubt yourself.

This is how school girls are being made to feel if they query a boy who identifies as a girl accessing female spaces. They're the issue, they aren't nice and accepting enough.

Women are conditioned to be nice and accepting and aren't supposed to set the boundaries.,

NeurotrashWarrior · 03/02/2020 21:17

Actually op

I’ll say good luck and good bye to you now.

He's desperate for a reply to this so either what barracker said, "go well" or just don't reply.

The cheek of it!

Men don't get to say how 'privileged' women are.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 03/02/2020 21:19

If you don't respond I bet he comes back with an attempt to get you to. Like a toddler going "I'm not talking to you!"

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2020 21:22

The average guy in the street would not be able to argue in such depth about the issue. He can argue about it because he is invested in the issue. He's looking for Miss Right, and expecting you to as well. Lucky escape.

Yes I agree.

TinselAngel · 03/02/2020 21:23

Cross dresser. Run away!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2020 21:25

I'd reply " the fact you thought a trans woman had to wear a dress to enter female spaces shows you actually do still rely on sex stereotypes with regards to appearances. I was hoping you were a bit more progressive than that, so I'll say goodbye now."

If you say something, make it this Grin

CousinKrispy · 03/02/2020 21:32

Yes, probably safest not to reply at all. I'd be tempted to ask him "So where exactly are you on the purity spiral?" (See thread about the recent radio show.) So sorry he was such a duck.

CousinKrispy · 03/02/2020 21:34

Dick!! Not duck! I have nothing against ducks.

Well actually male ducks are so rapey, the females have had to evolve multiple chambered cloacas...

FrenchtoEnglish · 03/02/2020 21:36

@CousinKrispy - Bloody hell! Rapey ducks! My world has really changed today!

OP posts:
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