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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stewart Lee

191 replies

FalloverBoy · 01/02/2020 14:06

He’s on tour and I’ve just seen a Twitter post by someone saying he had a dig at Ricky Gervais’ Transphobia. That he hates Ricky Gervais is no surprise (I’m more of a Stewart Lee gal myself) but has anyone seen him live on this tour? I want to stick my fingers in my ears if he is because I bloody love his comedy.

OP posts:
CarefullyDrawnMap · 03/02/2020 12:25

What did Stewart Lee actually say, as the 'mumsnet punchline'? I looked up his latest column in the Observer (thinking, wrongly, this was what you are talking about) and enjoyed it, whereas normally I prefer David Mitchell's writing (they seem to alternate).

I don't think Richard Herring (seriously? International Men's Day?) and Stewart Lee are woman haters.

I reckon that the past 20 or so years have seen a structural shift in the human brain. Thanks to Google. Whereas before we had to hold entire sentences in our heads to grasp the meanings within, thanks to Google (and it's ilk) everything is deconstructed to keywords for searching. So people just hear a keyword and immediately find the appropriate response Google-fashion. Any nuance, subtly or irony completely stripped away. Quite, SerendipityJane

theflushedzebra · 03/02/2020 13:04

The contempt for Mumsnet is one of the most glaring examples of cultural misogyny I've ever seen. Silly chattering empty headed women wittering about prosecco and prams.

Agree. So many people do it, it's hardly cutting edge.

Men do it through, well, sheer misogyny really.

Women do it to say "Oh, not me, LOL! I'm not like those silly chattering women/manhaters/transphobes*."
*Delete as applicable.

RoyalCorgi · 03/02/2020 13:08

I looked up his latest column in the Observer (thinking, wrongly, this was what you are talking about) and enjoyed it,

I thought he was bang on about the whole fourth-wall thing. It amazed me the way the media kept going on about Fleabag breaking the fourth wall as if it was something new and clever when people have been doing it for years. As he says, when Mrs Brown's Boys does it no one seems to think it's clever at all. The critics don't even mention it. (I am slightly sceptical about whether he actually thinks Mrs Brown's Boys is funny, though.)

Anyway, I don't think either Richard Herring or Stewart Lee are woman-haters but I do think they need to wise up when it comes to grasping the hostility trans activists have towards women's rights. Not quite sure why it's taking so long. You only have to look at the footage from Seattle on Saturday night to start asking (to quote Mitchell and Webb): Are we the baddies?

Winecheesesleep · 03/02/2020 14:11

I definitely don't think Richard Herring and Stewart Lee are women haters, more that they subscribe to the 'why can't everyone just be kind' school of thought on this. To be honest I used to think exactly the same thing until I learned more about it and started to see the potential impact on existing women's rights and how this needed to be acknowledged rather than shouted down. It seems more common for men to have this attitude.

popehilarious · 03/02/2020 14:32

I thought he was bang on about the whole fourth-wall thing. It amazed me the way the media kept going on about Fleabag breaking the fourth wall as if it was something new and clever when people have been doing it for years

Slightly off-topic, but yes, it reminded me of Miranda.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 03/02/2020 15:00

I do think they need to wise up when it comes to grasping the hostility trans activists have towards women's rights.

Their attitude is very common in their industry though. Even worse with the younger ones. It's like a competition to see who can be the most compassionat and woke.
Also, women comedians are as bad for it (if not worse) - Josie Long is particularly notable, but I have heard several call Linehan a hateful transphobe.

RoyalCorgi · 03/02/2020 15:06

Their attitude is very common in their industry though. Even worse with the younger ones. It's like a competition to see who can be the most compassionat and woke.

This is so true. You're right about Josie Long, but it's true of all of them, really. Nish Kumar, James Acaster, Sara Pascoe, the whole darn' lot of them. It's interesting in a way - you expect comedians to have a bit more in the way of critical-thinking skills. (Not the Bernard Manning type of comedian, but the more modern, politicised ones.)

Who does actually get it? Graham Linehan (but he's not a standup). Ben Elton. Ricky Gervais, up to a point. Is that it?

SerendipityJane · 03/02/2020 15:19

Shakespeare broke the 4th wall.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 03/02/2020 15:25

you expect comedians to have a bit more in the way of critical-thinking skills

Why?
The majority of successful standup comedians employ people to write for them, any trace of anything creative leaves them when demand is higher than they can produce material.

Actual critical thinkers tend to be writers.

SerendipityJane · 03/02/2020 15:30

Actual critical thinkers tend to be writers.

I think it's fair to characterise SL as a writer. "The life and deaths of a standup comedian" is a very well written exploration of some of ins and outs of standup comedy. It includes annotated transcripts of 3 of his shows, where the ideas behind the routine are explained.

Jimmy Carr also has quite a forensic interest in comedy.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 03/02/2020 15:44

Not all comedians have writing teams, only the big stars. SL would have some help for his TV show (Armando Ianucci for one) but doubt he does for his stand up tours.

OvaltinaTurner · 03/02/2020 16:01

Shakespeare broke the 4th wall
So did Miranda Grin
So did Stewart on his Vehicle thing.
I think it's fair to characterise SL as a writer
You clearly didn't read his fiction novel then Wink

Langbannedforsafeguardingkids · 03/02/2020 16:01

Who does actually get it? Graham Linehan (but he's not a standup). Ben Elton. Ricky Gervais, up to a point. Is that it?

Robert Webb (again not a standup) gets it I think but hasn't actually publicly stood up for women and girls yet.How not to be a boy is good and I can't believe anyone who wrote that could really truly believe TWAW.

I think anyone who gets money from the BBC is scared of speaking up.

RoyalCorgi · 03/02/2020 16:12

Why? The majority of successful standup comedians employ people to write for them, any trace of anything creative leaves them when demand is higher than they can produce material.

There's a huge difference between people like Michael McIntyre, who is very old school, and certainly does have a team of writers, and comedians such as Stewart Lee, Richard Herring, James Acaster, Sara Pascoe, Lucy Porter, Holly Walsh etc who almost certainly write their own stuff. They tend to put their own very personal stamp on things. And a lot of those comedians are also writers - Stewart Lee, Acaster, Herring and Pascoe have all written books. As indeed have countless other comedians (David Baddiel, Robert Webb and Jo Brand spring to mind, not to mention the awful David Walliams).

I've been disappointed not to see Jo Brand come out in support of gc feminists. Robert Webb did, briefly, then deleted his tweet. Essentially, the ones who aren't stupid, by and large, are cowards.

popehilarious · 03/02/2020 16:22

Ooh serendipity thanks, I didn't know SL had a book about his stand-up - will give it a read. I've got his novel somewhere but I didn't really get into it..

I used to be a massive fan of Josie Long back in the day (first saw her supporting SL, to no laughter whatsoever except from me and dh) but I had to walk out of one of her gigs a few years ago - not cos I was offended, but other reasons plus the singer who was supporting was doing my head in (won't name her as I'm sure she's very nice but she's definitely not GC!)

popehilarious · 03/02/2020 16:25

Bloody hell I've just googled it and already have it Blush but i see he has others I haven't read!!

deydododatdodontdeydo · 03/02/2020 16:45

And a lot of those comedians are also writers - Stewart Lee, Acaster, Herring and Pascoe have all written books.

Not only that, they often write material for the bigger, more succesful comedians. I know Herring has been part of a writing team for TV shows. They often do links and things - scripted jokes for shows like Harry Hill, etc. (if that's even still on).

OvaltinaTurner · 03/02/2020 16:48

He hates panel shows because they expose you to the casual viewer - he did HIGNFY for one episode then allegedly the week after broadcast was on honeymoon in Aberdeen waiting for a cab and someone drove by yelling OI! QUIZ SHOW CUNT!!!
so he actively avoids doing stuff that promotes him like that. He prefers his audience to seek him out. In fairness until I heard all that in an interview I had forgotten all the shit he received for Jerry Springer - the musical (death threats, confrontations etc)
Whatever SL the person irl actually thinks as opposed to the character SL...I doubt he would put it out there as he knows what it's like being hounded.

SerendipityJane · 03/02/2020 16:57

In fairness until I heard all that in an interview I had forgotten all the shit he received for Jerry Springer - the musical (death threats, confrontations etc)

He also got an Olivier award for it. (Which he rather ungraciously boasts about in an episode of SLCV - along with being "published by Faber and fucking Faber unlike your Mock the Week twats" ...). There's also a BAFTA tucked away somewhere.

HandsOffMyLangCleg · 03/02/2020 17:29

What did Stewart Lee actually say, as the 'mumsnet punchline'? I looked up his latest column in the Observer (thinking, wrongly, this was what you are talking about) and enjoyed it, whereas normally I prefer David Mitchell's writing (they seem to alternate).

Mumsnet was cited about 4-5 times during Lee's routine. Derogatory, inference of bigotry, alongside Daily Mail, Brexiteers etc.

It wasn't tongue in cheek. As I said, I've watched everything he's done. I watch a number of comedians was a fan of Lee and his brand of irony. I'm 46, so old enough to be offended by all that I see or hear, but as a GC and female, I felt uncomfortable in that room.

The part about rape (during which rape is mentioned repeatedly) and locking a woman in a car was in the second half.

He does a piece on Tony Parsons, after Parsons criticised Lee for using the word "cunt"
And Lee explores whether the word is offensive, ending in the punchline: "I wanted to know whether the word 'cunt' was offensive, so I asked one." (boom boom).

Audience were majority white, woke, bloke. Beards or students chuckling, 2/3 males to 1 female.
This was perhaps the biggest indicator of the mood in the room, seeing the men (and some women) laughing at the mention of Mumsnet alongside BoJo etc.

In terms of comedians who "get it" I saw Ben Elton live in November and it's clear he's GC (read his last book too). Jo Brand did speak out briefly but was castigated.

Robert Webb retracted his tweets.

Lee has worked closely with Chris Morris from the Day to Day who I sincerely hope is GC.

The League of Gentlemen - praying they are GC too.

I'd like to hear French and Saunders on this subject.

SerendipityJane · 03/02/2020 17:35

It wasn't tongue in cheek. As I said, I've watched everything he's done. I watch a number of comedians was a fan of Lee and his brand of irony. I'm 46, so old enough to be offended by all that I see or hear, but as a GC and female, I felt uncomfortable in that room

Be curious how that got past the filters of Bridget Christie, since it's clear they share material and ideas, and I can't see her giving him a free pass Hmm

theflushedzebra · 03/02/2020 17:36

Woke bloke comedy - rapes jokes for beardy blokes.

OvaltinaTurner · 03/02/2020 17:43

No I know he is talented and received accolades (although I hated his novel The Perfect Fool with a passion. It is one of the few books I have tried to read several times and just couldn't get through it. Plus I am one of the ones who cannot get through the tedium of Ang Lee while my erstwhile partner was literally crying with laughter). But having heard him talk of being confronted and not knowing whether someone was going to be nice or want to punch him in the face and other occasions when he has been nice with a stan and others are then hostile Who the fuck are you?...I don't blame him for avoiding confrontation/the contentious and performing at a distance/within a character.

HandsOffMyLangCleg · 03/02/2020 17:51

Be curious how that got past the filters of Bridget Christie, since it's clear they share material and ideas, and I can't see her giving him a free pass hmm

She also believes TWAW so who knows? Hmm

OvaltinaTurner · 03/02/2020 18:04

As for him not being GC because he talks about his peers' targets as punching down: ''it’s often downwards, towards transgender people'' he is entitled to think that some comedians' work does that. It all depends on the material: RG's joke about women drivers was poking fun at that stereotype whilst having a dig at CJ for being able to evade justice. It was a solid joke. Not to do with trans per se - but by then going on about Bruce's balls and doing a skit about identifying as an ape along with all the noises (iirc something along those lines) that wasn't as clever imo even if it was meant to take the idea of self ID as far as it would go. It seemed LCD/lazier and about as funny as Walliams' I'm a laydee or the sketch on the Russell Howard show a few years back on how British budget airlines would cut costs and have unconvincing transvestites in response to a Thai airline hiring the equivalent of the ladyboys of Bangkok.