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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Keira Bell

313 replies

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 25/01/2020 10:40

I'm not sure whether this issue has been debated on this board, as I haven't been posting/reading here for a few weeks. But the story is here:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/22/former-transgender-patient-tells-court-sex-change-clinic-putting/

and here:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7926675/Witness-court-battle-against-gender-clinic-reveals-happened-cry-help.html

TLDR: The Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust, which runs the UK's only gender identity development service (GIDS) for children, is being sued over concerns that youngsters are being given "experimental treatment" without adequate assessments.

Keira's view as to her symptoms, and lack of warning about them:

I had symptoms similar to the menopause when a woman's hormones drop. I had hot flushes, I found it difficult to sleep, my sex drive disappeared. I was given calcium tablets because my bones weakened.

Keira claims she was not warned by the Tavistock therapists of the dreadful symptoms ahead. 'My female hormones had been flushing through my body and, suddenly, a curtain came down on them. It felt pretty bad,' she recalls.

And as to now:

'The treatment needs to change so that it does not put young people, like me, on a torturous and unnecessary path that is life-changing. I feel like I've been lied to because it did not make me feel any better.

As she struggles to return to life as a woman, she adds, with feeling: 'I don't want any more kids to suffer like me.

That poor woman. This is unconscionable, and the mere idea of the opposite side of this view even having a case to answer in court is so frightening it seems to be bordering on dystopia. In the meantime (and not directly applicable to FtoM transition) I know someone who is currently experiencing hideous, debilitating menopausal symptoms, and is unable to get HRT. There just isn't any available. Instead, her GP has prescribed her with ... Prozac.

I'm curious to know whether MtoF transitioners are experiencing the same issue.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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R0wantrees · 05/03/2020 20:34

All rather disrespectful on a thread about Keira Bell.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 05/03/2020 20:35

And the only reason to deny ROGD is more politics

Keira is the tip of the iceberg, a whole wave of detransitioners are coming, and they are the kids with ROGD, who should never have transitioned in the first place.

Go read first hand accounts from kids in their late teens and early 20s whose teeth are dropping out due to decapeptyl;

www.reddit.com/r/detrans/

What benefit do adult transitioners gain from denying this?

The backlash is coming, and Keira is leading it.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 05/03/2020 20:38

Did you know that Charing Cross GIC now does the initial visit as a mass sessions in a lecture hall?

Does that not weird you out when we were told the GRC would apply to around 5000 people?

oopster · 05/03/2020 20:41

DuLANGMondeFOREVER I'll do my best, but I'm having trouble keeping up here and I'm supposed to be busy tidying my place up.

Ok, all these kids are coming out saying they're trans right? And it seems like it's coming out of the blue for most people, am I right so far? That's not anything thats suddenly come on. We have more information at our fingertips nowadays than we ever did before.

Even back when I was a kid in the 80's, you had straight and gay / lesbian, then you had stereotypically masuline and feminine ways of acting. Boys who acted like "sissies" we're scolded or codled, thought of that they'll grow up to be gay, and ooh wasn't that a bad thing then. Girls who we're more into rough and tumble, playing in the mud we're seen as "tomboys", and they'll grow out of it eventually, my cousins sister used to be like don't you know. You get my meaning?

Now, there's seemingly more options for kids to identify with, and less stigma than there was for their parents, not that there should be a stigma with so many things. So, that leads to more kids saying they're this that and the other, and to the people around them, the adults mainly, that looks like a sudden thing.

Finally, I'm not a parent, I'd loved to have been but it just wasn't to be for me. There's one thing I don't need to tell any parent, but it's always good to remember. Love your kids, support your kids, you will make mistakes, we all do that. If you're kid tells you they're trans, they're still your kids, you're not going to tell them to get out the house and never come back, at least I hope no one would do that. But, and I think this is the best advice I can give, support them, but don't make a big thing about it. If it's a phase, they'll grow out of it, if you discourage them, they're more likely to carry on with it regardless. If you support them and love like I'm assuming most will, they can come to you and talk to you honestly because they know you won't reject them and they know they can do that. Don't tell them what they can and can't do on this, ask them why, ask them what they think they should do, as them if they think that is a good idea, make them think for themselves, as it's them that will have to live with the consequences of their actiosn, good bad or indifferent.

I'm not going to post any more comments today, I'm getting tired and I need to get back to what I was doing.

R0wantrees · 05/03/2020 20:43

Feminist Current
JANUARY 9, 2020 by LIV BRIDGE

'Detransitioners are living proof the practices surrounding ‘trans kids’ need be questioned
Detransitioners are living proof that the practices surrounding “trans youth” need be questioned, yet their experiences are too often ignored.
(extract)
Ryan expressed empathy towards her fellow researchers. She said they are battling “immense pressure” to alleviate the suffering of patients struggling with dysphoria and affirm patients’ gender identity without question or intervention. Hutchinson, who worked in GIDS for five years, noted that clinicians can be accused of transphobia for merely “talking about evidence.”

“But how can it be transphobic to ask for better standards of care for this client group? I want better standards of care for kids with gender dysphoria,” she said, to loud applause.

Another former GIDS employee in the audience claimed that medical experts face both external and internal pressures. Most feel prohibited from talking about the possibility of desistence and detransition entirely. Bell agreed: manoeuvrability to investigate and conduct research on desistence seems almost impossible when the trans movement “has penetrated into clinical services,” and cannot be questioned, challenged, or exposed. Bell said the extent to which gender ideology has “the ears of politicians right up the highest level” as well as control over much of the media was remarkable. “It has sort of gone through unquestioned,” he said. O’Malley considered that this has only served the best interests of “non-experts” with a lot of social media followers, essentially allowing them to “lead the room” and act with impunity.

Then came the enthralling and emotional damning indictment of doctors’ negligence: the detransition panel.

It is worth noting the bravery that young women — all between the ages of 19 and 29 — exhibited as they recalled their most intimate surgeries and brutal insecurities. Later, on Twitter, Evans disclosed that, of the seven women on the panel, there were five mastectomies, two hysterectomies, two oophorectomies (the removal of ovaries), and 20 years of testosterone combined.

So, why have so many young women been compelled to undergo such brutal surgeries?

One detransitioner, who goes by the name “Satan Herself” on Twitter, said that transitioning was a way to evade lesbophobia and her “reality as a homosexual woman.” Living as a “transman” for five years, she had never even considered the possibility she harboured internalized homophobia, as she was so supportive of LGBT rights. Yet she knew no lesbians and was starved of representation of masculine women. She said she couldn’t envision growing up into an adult lesbian woman, and immersed herself in transgender theory, which seemed the ideal way to “fix herself.” (continues)

Despite almost dying from anorexia, “Satan Herself” said she never linked hating her female body to her eating disorder or gender dysphoria. She never connected the dots between her fear of living as a female and her fear of living at a normal weight, both of which caused her to be dismissive of her health.

“I often wonder how nobody realized that? No therapist I saw; no doctor I talked to about getting surgery; no one in my personal life,” she said to a tear-choked room. “I just wish someone would have been there to tell me not to get castrated at 21…

… Just what the hell are surgeons doing?” (continues)

www.feministcurrent.com/2020/01/09/detransitioners-are-living-proof-the-practices-surrounding-trans-kids-need-be-questioned/

oopster · 05/03/2020 20:44

R0wantrees oh, you mean like the local therapists that you have to see before being referred to a GIC? Those therapists?

R0wantrees · 05/03/2020 20:55

oopster This a thread about Keira Bell who is part of a Judicial Review about the legality of NHS treatment of children.

She was child (under 18years) when she entered the NHS treatment route.

You'll find the NHS protocol for GIDS service/children identified as experiencing gender dysphoria etc here:
www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/gender-development-service-children-adolescents.pdf

R0wantrees · 05/03/2020 20:57

BACP Good Practice Guide, British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy, Gender,Sexual, and Relationship Diversity by Dr Meg-John Barker

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3339137-BACP-Gender-Sexual-and-Relationship-Diversity-by-Dr-Meg-John-Barker

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 05/03/2020 20:59

Oopster, I wish that was true, but it’s not. You need to listen to the young people coming out of the other side, young women like Keira.

Here’s some videos you can listen to while cleaning:

www.youtube.com/channel/UCmGEMjyAwk6R1lTmG_JjLUA

And you need to read the stuff that respected clinicians are publishing, Dr David Bell of GIDS is one of the Tavi staff I spoke to in person.
I talk to Marcus Evans (former governor of the Tavistock) on Twitter.
Parents aren’t pulling this stuff out of their arses.

Or well, you don’t need to, but you cannot carry on saying ROGD isn’t real if you aren’t willing to actually explore the other side.

This is going to blow up into a giant scandal and this is officially me, and countless other Mumsnetters telling you now.

We don’t actually want to be able to say “I told you so’.
These are OUR daughters.
Why can’t transactivists accept that we know our daughters better than they do?

Datun · 05/03/2020 21:12

Oopster, you have zero idea what the women here are talking about. No such thing as ROGD?? 'Love your kids, support them, they may grow out of it?'

How many more platitudes you got?

You need to do some more reading.

One young female detransitioner finally realised that it was the relentless rape by her father that made her want to exit her female hood. She hated her sexed body. And figured if she didn't have a vagina, her father couldn't rape her in it.

Stephanie Davis Arai of transgendertrend, who has been contacted by thousands, says that she's never seen a young woman/girl transition who wasn't either a lesbian, autistic or had suffered some sexual trauma.

Gender dysphoria is a solution to a myriad of problems. Who could think that cutting off beasts, growing beards, halting maturity, becoming sterile and losing sexual function any kind of solution?

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 05/03/2020 21:23

If you only read one thing, make it this one, written by GIDs employees:

Extract:

Crucially, it is important to acknowledge, that girls and young women have long recruited their bodies as ways of expressing misery and self-hatred. Bodies become the site onto which they can project their perceived failure to live up to society’s expectations of them and also their internal, psychic pain. Psychic pain that arises out of the manifold implications of being a suffering human being: trauma, abuse, neglect, bullying, social ostracism, bereavement to name but a few. Also, for some, the fear of leaving childhood behind, the terror of female adulthood, is overwhelming.

It is not unreasonable to hypothesise that developing gender dysphoria, and alighting on a trans identity as the way of understanding, can, in some instances, be the solution (cure) to the ‘problem’ of being born female. It could be the ultimate act of self-harm. A form of self-harm hardly noticeable to many because it is so aligned with the disavowed but ever present attack on gender non-conforming women that exists throughout society.

We cannot ignore the role of the internet in this; whether cyber bullying, competitive instagram, exposure to pornography, sexualisation or the associated phenomenon of a sort of social and collective influencing. We know that there is a parallel world of on-line engagement where children and young people are engaging globally out of sight of any mediating influence or alternative explanation for their distress.

Whatever influencing factors, both exogenous / social and endogenous / psychological, there might be these are all happening within the wider context of the decimation of local child and adolescent mental health services (CAMHS) over the last decade. We are seeing a generation of young people emerge who have been poorly served by local specialist provision: a phenomenon recognised and documented here.

In the clinical setting we have become familiar with narratives, especially in younger children, resting almost entirely on the most superficial of signifiers: toys, activities, hair, clothes, a certain aesthetic upon which effectively the (self) diagnosis of trans is made, and a social role transition affected. Unfortunately these tropes are compounded and perpetuated by some “diversity” trainings delivered in schools.

womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/17/the-natal-female-question/

R0wantrees · 05/03/2020 21:27

These whistle blown concerns are a matter of public record & an inquiry is long overdue into the care of vulnerable young people by both NHS & private medical practice:

February 2019
"The true histories of “highly disturbed or complex” child patients were not properly explored by Gids clinicians struggling with “huge and unmanageable caseloads” and afraid of being accused of transphobia if they questioned the “rehearsed” surface presentation. The report says the concerns voiced by staff are shared by Sonia Appleby, who is in charge of safeguarding at the trust."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3509817-Times-16-2-1-9-Staff-at-trans-clinic-fear-damage-to-children

OldCrone · 05/03/2020 21:44

Keira did what she thought was right at the time, the medical people we're trying to help her and did what they thought was the right thing at the time. There is no one to blame in this situation.

You don't seem to understand what this case is about oopster.

The case is about whether it should be legal to offer this treatment to children, or whether they are unable to consent because they cannot possibly understand all the consequences.

Currently children are allowed to consent to treatment which may leave them infertile and with no sexual function. The case is considering whether children are capable of informed consent to such treatment.

Al1Langdownthecleghole · 05/03/2020 22:34

I couldn't even get painkillers for a condition I've had for 40 years as my GP says doctors aren't so willing to hand out "powerfull addictive meditions" nowadays

Over the past 40 years a lot of new evidence has been established. Medicine has also become less patriarchal - although there is still a heck of a long way to go on that one - as this very topic illustrates.

So to take your example of pain; 40 years ago people were routinely prescribed co-proxamol for chronic pain, which was dispensed in large quantities. As evidence emerged about its limited effectiveness and concerns over its use in suicides it became less widely used and was eventually withdrawn. Best practice now is for clinicians and patients to work in partnership, to balance the benefits of medication against side effects in a way that works best for the individual patient. Non-pharmacological interventions such as physio and exercise are also encouraged, because these often have better long term outcomes.

But there is no best practice for ROGD based upon comprehensive research because the trials haven't been done on any scale and the follow up from centres like the Tavistock have been woeful.

Mermaids preferred pathways aren't evidence. Anecdata isn't evidence.

Children and their families can't work in partnership with a team of clinicians if the service funnels them onto a treatment pathway as soon as they say the magic words. And they can't consent to treatment if they are not able to comprehend - as in emotionally understand - the consequences.

oopster · 05/03/2020 22:40

Oldcrone, I know the case is about that, but remember, she was 18 when she started testosterone, she was legally an adult. She'd taken blockers at 16 or 17? If she'd decided to stop taking them then her puberty that had been paused by them would reasert itself.

It was her choice, she was free to choose. I see so many things online that we should have the freedom to choose what we do with our bodies, the big one being with regards to abortion rights. At 16 you can legally consent to sex, you can join the army, at 17 you can legally drive, at 18 you can drink, smoke, get married, but you're saying that you're not old enough to consent to transition? I'd be the first one telling her to make sure that she's doing the right thing for her where transition is concerned, and to hold off if she has any doubts, but at the end of the day the decision is upto the individual doing it. Yes she was 16 when she first received treatment which would have been counselling, before any medical treatment would have been considered.

R0wantrees · 05/03/2020 22:49

As reported at the weekend

"Ms Bell's legal team will argue the centre's approach was unlawful because

  1. children could not give informed consent for this kind of treatment and

  2. the potential risks of treatment were not adequately explained"

OldCrone · 05/03/2020 22:55

You're still not paying attention oopster. The case is about whether CHILDREN are able to consent to treatment which is likely to leave them infertile and with no sexual function. It's about whether they can actually give informed consent about treatment which will affect these aspects of their lives when they do not have a full understanding about what that means - because they are CHILDREN.

TheGreatWave · 06/03/2020 00:05

Girls who were more into rough and tumble, playing in the mud we're seen as "tomboys", and they'll grow out of it eventually,

I don't really understand this, what makes you think they 'grew out of it'. ? They had their careers in STEM, whilst juggling motherhood and only wearing a dress the day they got married.

But now they are old and their experiences irrelevant apparently, except they are not because they have the frigging t-shirt and know that one day the majority will be happy just the way they are.

This idea that us women were prancing around in dresses and still are or somehow suppressed our inner true identity is bizarre. I see no progression at all.

R0wantrees · 06/03/2020 00:07

In England a person is considered a child until their 18th birthday.

Datun · 06/03/2020 00:08

Yes she was 16 when she first received treatment which would have been counselling, before any medical treatment would have been considered

She had three 1 hour sessions. I've told you this at least twice.

DodoPatrol · 06/03/2020 00:11

Oopster, why do you think you know better than Keira does what her own experience was?

OldCrone · 06/03/2020 00:15

I've told you this at least twice.

I'm sure I've said the same thing to oopster multiple times as well. I get the impression oopster is just here to waste our time repeating ourselves endlessly.

R0wantrees · 06/03/2020 00:27

Its telling when adults want to disrupt consideration & discussion of a potential serious Safeguarding failure in an NHS paediatric service.

Datun · 06/03/2020 00:28

I get the impression oopster is just here to waste our time repeating ourselves endlessly.

Without doubt. But I, for one, am not really speaking to oopster.

R0wantrees · 06/03/2020 00:30

Just over a year ago, senior NHS staff went public with their whistle blown concerns:

Times
'Governor quits ‘blinkered’ Tavistock clinic'
(extract)
A governor of the NHS trust that runs England’s only gender clinic for children has resigned in protest at its “blinkered” and “one-sided” response to doctors who had raised the alarm about “woefully inadequate” care.

Marcus Evans, a consultant psychotherapist at the Tavistock and Portman trust with three decades’ experience, told The Sunday Times that the trust had said things that were “not true”, had created a “climate of fear” and was trying to “dismiss or undermine” concerns raised by its own clinicians.

“I am sad to be ending my proud 34-year association with the trust,” Evans wrote in his resignation letter. “However, I do not have confidence that these serious issues . . . are going to be sufficiently addressed and dealt with in a thorough, thoughtful and balanced way.”

Twenty-five other clinicians at the trust have signed a letter protesting against how it had handled the concerns of medical staff. The 25 said the attitude of managers was “not acceptable”.

In a report leaked to this newspaper last week, some staff at the Tavistock’s gender identity development service (Gids) said it was exposing young patients to “long-term damage” because of its “inability to stand up to the pressure” from “highly politicised” campaigners and families demanding fast-track gender transition." (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/governor-quits-blinkered-tavistock-clinic-82db7wzq8?shareToken=8e6b7665a9c252f96c290b6dc0d0d87e

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