Keira Bell

[MarieIVanArkleStinks]

I'm not sure whether this issue has been debated on this board, as I haven't been posting/reading here for a few weeks. But the story is here:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/22/former-transgender-patient-tells-court-sex-change-clinic-putting/

and here:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7926675/Witness-court-battle-against-gender-clinic-reveals-happened-cry-help.html

TLDR: The Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust, which runs the UK's only gender identity development service (GIDS) for children, is being sued over concerns that youngsters are being given "experimental treatment" without adequate assessments.

Keira's view as to her symptoms, and lack of warning about them:

I had symptoms similar to the menopause when a woman's hormones drop. I had hot flushes, I found it difficult to sleep, my sex drive disappeared. I was given calcium tablets because my bones weakened.

Keira claims she was not warned by the Tavistock therapists of the dreadful symptoms ahead. 'My female hormones had been flushing through my body and, suddenly, a curtain came down on them. It felt pretty bad,' she recalls.

And as to now:

'The treatment needs to change so that it does not put young people, like me, on a torturous and unnecessary path that is life-changing. I feel like I've been lied to because it did not make me feel any better.

As she struggles to return to life as a woman, she adds, with feeling: 'I don't want any more kids to suffer like me.

That poor woman. This is unconscionable, and the mere idea of the opposite side of this view even having a case to answer in court is so frightening it seems to be bordering on dystopia. In the meantime (and not directly applicable to FtoM transition) I know someone who is currently experiencing hideous, debilitating menopausal symptoms, and is unable to get HRT. There just isn't any available. Instead, her GP has prescribed her with ... Prozac.

I'm curious to know whether MtoF transitioners are experiencing the same issue.

The interview with Keira on the BBC is very interesting. That poor young woman was completely let down. Now she has had a mastectomy and is left with the outward appearance of being male, which she no longer wants but cannot change.
It’s interesting that she says that had she been about to live how she wanted, as a ‘Tom boy’ then she would not have gone down this route.
Not so many years ago many many women lived their lives not wearing the clothes of traditional women. What has changed? Is it all the fault of social media where young girls are dressed like dolls and any girl who doesn’t want to do that is being a girl wrong?

I wish her every luck in the world. This was not her fault in the slightest but the fault of the adults she put her trust in.

Do find 5 minutes to watch the interview. NHS gender clinic 'should have challenged me more' over transition www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020

It's absolutely disgusting how activists have got people thinking that the only 2 options are 1) give a seriously unwell teenager everything they ask for or 2) leave suicidal ideation untreated with the certainty it'll lead to actual harm. No. There are so many options in between those point. I've known so many people feel suicidal for different reasons, some of whom have actually tried to hurt themselves. They were all given support to resolve their suicidal feelings, but not one of them was given the actual thing they felt suicidal over. Universities don't readmit students who failed their exams if they're suicidal. People fired from work don't get rehired if they're suicidal. We don't tell women to stay with men who have threatened suicide if they leave. People feel suicidal every day for many different reasons, and no, the care available to them isn't great, but it does exist - therapy, medication, crisis team involvement, even hospitalisation if doctors think the risk of harm is high enough. What we don't ever do is just give people everything they want, especially when the thing they want is impossible! There should only ever be one answer to a teenager who wishes they were the opposite sex, and that's "no, you can't be, it's impossible - now let's get you some proper help to resolve these feelings". And if after all that those feelings still persist into adult hood - well, that's up to the adult. Adults can do what they want, but protecting children from the political agenda of those adults is everyone's responsibility.

Myths about suicide (includes contact number)

www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/support-and-information/worried-about-someone-else/myths-about-suicide/

We’ve been talking about the Tavistocks failings in the most recent pages of this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3832720-12-year-old-daughter-saying-she-thinks-shes-male

Gender distressed kids deserve better than they are currently getting. Whether you believe in the concept of ‘transkids’ or not, I’m sure we can all agree that children and adolescents with suspected gender dysphoria deserve treatment that is properly evidenced and follows all the safety and ethics protocols of other areas of paediatric mental and physical health. This is not the case currently.

^It’s interesting that she says that had she been about to live how she wanted, as a ‘Tom boy’ then she would not have gone down this route.
Not so many years ago many many women lived their lives not wearing the clothes of traditional women. What has changed?^

That is a great question. It highlights that at the centre of this ideology are regressive sex stereotypes. This ideology is about conformity to 1950s stereotypes. Without the vintage glamour.

If they had not given her the treatment, she wouldn't be suing them, she'd be dead.

Why do you think that? Especially when this is NOT borne out by statistics? You are simply continuing the TRA blackmail lie of ‘give them dangerous medications or they will kills themselves’ . The reality is suicide increases dramatically post-transition and transitioning children causes untold harms, shortens life expectancy of children and makes them life-long medical patients when 80-95% of them would have come to terms with their sex if allowed to go through puberty.

Here is a link to the BBC article. Keira Bell describes how her belief that gender reassignment would 'cure' her depression was never challenged. She has been through such an ordeal as a consequence of the decisions of doctors. Her bravery and resilience are so admirable.

www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020

It's absolutely disgusting how activists have got people thinking that the only 2 options are 1) give a seriously unwell teenager everything they ask for or 2) leave suicidal ideation untreated with the certainty it'll lead to actual harm.

Quite. It’s a very binary response.

What a time we're living in.

Shoving the responsibility for life changing and irreversible treatment onto vulnerable and desperate 16 year olds

You can't even get a tattoo before you're 18.

So according to you, 100% of young people who don't get transgender hormone treatment on demand kill themselves, compared to none of those who get the treatment they want.

What the heck? Where did you get that from?
Do you think 100% kill themselves? I don't. If I did, maybe I would have, you know, posted that.
This thread, and my post is about Keira Bell.

There is no evidence that any UK children kill themselves due to receiving gender affirmation treatment. There is evidence that a very small number have committed suicide whilst actively receiving treatment though, and that puberty blockers increase depressive feelings and suicide ideation in natal females.

Correction: There is no evidence that any UK children kill themselves due to NOT receiving gender affirmation treatment.

and my post is about Keira Bell

Your assertion about Keira Bell is unsupported by anything Keira Bell herself has said. Keira Bell describes being fast tracked onto a medical pathway which resulted in her having her breasts amputated and long term use of drugs which may have caused infertility. The doctors responsible for this need to be held to account. And your assertion is baseless.

Why do you think that?

Because she said this:
"I did say the same thing years ago when I went to the clinic. I would say it was saving me from suicidal ideation and depression in general and at the time I felt it relieved all those mental health issues I was feeling, alongside gender dysphoria."

I'm not talking about statistics, I'm talking about Keira Bell.

It’s heartbreaking, and as people have said in here before, it’s going to be this generation’s Thalidomide scandal.

Keira is brave to bring the case and I hope she has plenty of support when the TRA start in on her.

You have misrepresented Keira's meaning. She says that was the rationale she presented. It is the responsibility of the adults to challenge the assertion that GR will 'solve' teenage depression. They did not do that. It is an abdication of their medical duty. Here's the rest of Keira's quote:

^She described her family life as difficult. She also believes if she had felt more accepted by society as she was then, she might not have wanted to changer her gender. She added that she wouldn't have wanted to listen to voices of caution when she was younger. "I feel I could say anything to my 16-year-old self and I might not necessarily listen at that time. And that's the point of this case, when you are that young you don't really want to listen.
"So I think it's up to these institutions, like the Tavistock, to step in and make children reconsider what they are saying, because it is a life-altering path"^

You know, I'm glad to not be quite so jaded that I can still be surprised, unpleasantly, when people come to this board suggesting that a child is responsible for irresponsibility of the adults she is in the care of. Always useful when I need a shot in the arm by being reminded of the kind of people who support this.

Exactly Bovary

I think the rest of Keira's quote is worth repeating:

"I feel I could say anything to my 16-year-old self and I might not necessarily listen at that time. And that's the point of this case, when you are that young you don't really want to listen.

"So I think it's up to these institutions, like the Tavistock, to step in and make children reconsider what they are saying, because it is a life-altering path."

You have misrepresented Keira's meaning.

If that's the case, I'm sorry. I read her words and understood that she was suicidal.

There are no other conditions that result in amputation with the diagnosis resting purely on words said by the patient.

Sister
You know the question that should be asked is why did the medical profession not encourage therapy instead of putting this vulnerable girl on a path to surgery? Keira grew up as a mixed race girl who felt alienated from her peers in a part of the country where it was difficult for her to find supportive friends. It is shocking that she has been subjected to this reckless medical treatment. I wish her all the best and it makes me very angry that this is going on in the 21st century UK.

GA surgery? This is incorrect.

The article is talking about GRA surgery.

You know the question that should be asked is why did the medical profession not encourage therapy instead of putting this vulnerable girl on a path to surgery?

Ex-Tavistock clinicians Marcus Evans and David Bell
would agree with you entirely, Bovary. As do I.

I urge everyone to read Inventing Transgender Children and Young People, edited by Michelle Moore and Heather Brunskell-Evans.

It is all made sense of here.

It's absolutely disgusting how activists have got people thinking that the only 2 options are 1) give a seriously unwell teenager everything they ask for or 2) leave suicidal ideation untreated with the certainty it'll lead to actual harm

That is exactly what i was going to say

Counseling would be more beneficial to many many people and and a gradual move towards a ‘possible’ transition over a longer timescale if necessary. And people would probably stop permanently at more stops along the way

And blaming a 16 year old child for what adults have done to her...what is wrong with people!

My 16 year went in for a very Minor OP and nearly agreed to a much worse one!!! consultant was talking to them about what was going to happen and its only because dh and i stopped him before the consultant left the room that we got it changed

This was being reported on Bbc radio this morning. Makes a change to the usual ostrich position the been assumes.

*beeb