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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Keira Bell

313 replies

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 25/01/2020 10:40

I'm not sure whether this issue has been debated on this board, as I haven't been posting/reading here for a few weeks. But the story is here:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/22/former-transgender-patient-tells-court-sex-change-clinic-putting/

and here:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7926675/Witness-court-battle-against-gender-clinic-reveals-happened-cry-help.html

TLDR: The Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust, which runs the UK's only gender identity development service (GIDS) for children, is being sued over concerns that youngsters are being given "experimental treatment" without adequate assessments.

Keira's view as to her symptoms, and lack of warning about them:

I had symptoms similar to the menopause when a woman's hormones drop. I had hot flushes, I found it difficult to sleep, my sex drive disappeared. I was given calcium tablets because my bones weakened.

Keira claims she was not warned by the Tavistock therapists of the dreadful symptoms ahead. 'My female hormones had been flushing through my body and, suddenly, a curtain came down on them. It felt pretty bad,' she recalls.

And as to now:

'The treatment needs to change so that it does not put young people, like me, on a torturous and unnecessary path that is life-changing. I feel like I've been lied to because it did not make me feel any better.

As she struggles to return to life as a woman, she adds, with feeling: 'I don't want any more kids to suffer like me.

That poor woman. This is unconscionable, and the mere idea of the opposite side of this view even having a case to answer in court is so frightening it seems to be bordering on dystopia. In the meantime (and not directly applicable to FtoM transition) I know someone who is currently experiencing hideous, debilitating menopausal symptoms, and is unable to get HRT. There just isn't any available. Instead, her GP has prescribed her with ... Prozac.

I'm curious to know whether MtoF transitioners are experiencing the same issue.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Aesopfable · 03/03/2020 22:08

All these people who claim to support transgender children and individuals but want them treated with dangerous untested medication which has proven list of harms. And who do not want the evidence for this medication examined! That is what this case is about: examining the evidence. Surely that can only be a good thing if you want the best for transgender children? Or perhaps you don’t?

oopster · 04/03/2020 00:12

Oldcrone no, every time I've seen her interviewed, he while argument was she wasn't challenged enough, so it's not unreasonable to ask the question I did.

oopster · 04/03/2020 00:15

It has been tested though. It's been used for over 30 years. The NHS doesn't just use untested drugs willy nilly. They may use experimental drugs with people suffering with cancer and similar, but that's all.

This court case will hopefully bring out the actual facts of the issue, but you know that's not going to be enough for some people who simply want anything trans related shut down.

oopster · 04/03/2020 00:18

I know they're 2 different people, but they have similar theories. It's amazing how you'll accept the theories of 2 people yet won't accept the theories of the majority of the rest on trans issues. Only liking what aligns with your theories?

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 04/03/2020 00:22

*It has been tested though. It's been used for over 30 years.
Not for adolescent onset gender dysphoria, it hasn’t. And no, it hasn’t been properly tested. Stop listening to Susie Green and read the actual studies.

And I haven’t said whether I agree with Blanchard or Bailey, I just pointed out that you couldn’t tell them apart. Stop telling people what they believe and start paying proper attention.

FloralBunting · 04/03/2020 00:33

All I'm hearing from oopster on this thread is a bunch of misinformed codswallop which seems to be prompted by a hefty dose of "What about meeeee?"

Transitioning is, imo, nonsense, but an adult doing something is very different to a child being able to do it.

This is really basic stuff, but all oopster is doing is pouting because they think this case will bring an end to all support for trans anything. Which is laughable, really, because the aim is clearly to make sure gender questioning children get the very best care.

OldCrone · 04/03/2020 00:35

oopster
This is what Keira Bell says about the legal case:

I have become a claimant in this case because I do not believe that children and young people can consent to the use of powerful and experimental hormone drugs like I did. I believe that the current affirmative system put in place by the Tavistock is inadequate as it does not allow for exploration of these gender dysphoric feelings nor does it seek to find the underlying causes of this condition. Hormone changing drugs and surgery does not work for everyone and it certainly should not be offered to someone under the age of 18 when they are emotionally and mentally vulnerable.

She has said other things in interviews, but that doesn't change what the legal action is about.

There's a link from this page if you want to learn more about it. It might help if you inform yourself about the facts rather than continuing to argue whilst seemingly being unaware of what the case is about.

Aesopfable · 04/03/2020 00:41

They may use experimental drugs with people suffering with cancer and similar, but that's all.

The NHS use experimental drugs in masses of different conditions from mild eczema to glaucoma, to depression, to corona virus, every single condition; definitely not just cancer! When an established drug, which may have been used for 30 years, is used to treat a different condition or in a different way for the same condition, it’s use is experimental until it’s safety, efficacy and effectiveness can be established. The fact that a drug may be given for a few years to delay puberty from abnormally early to slightly earlier than usual in precocious puberty does not mean that it’s use to stop a child with gender dysphoria from ever undergoing puberty can be considered safe, efficacious, or effective. Nor does it mean that even in the original condition that evidence may not come to light even after decades to prove it isn’t safe. For example steroids were used for years to treat patients with head injuries in a&e before it was discovered that it was killing patients.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 04/03/2020 00:45

Maybe we need to debunk all the propaganda bit by bit?
Like, the big lie, as far as children and adolescents are concerned, is that ‘puberty blockers’ are a ‘harmless pause’ that have been used for precocious puberty for years...

Yet it appears (and yet more studies will be welcome) that using triptolerin in the female paediatric population causes a 7-8 point drop in IQ.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5253377/

That’s not harrmless pause.

Datun · 04/03/2020 00:53

Datun, these are 2 people, Blanchard and Bailey with an agenda.

Eh? What agenda?

You can't seriously expect people to disbelieve AGP when the men who have it plaster their selfies, anecdotes and chat about it all over the web and write books about it.

It's not exactly hidden.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Lawrence

And as I said, their wives, girlfriends and ex wives have thousands of posts on this very site.

You're flogging a dead horse oopster. Everyone knows about AGP. David Thomas is diarising his in the daily telegraph. And loving his, um teenage boobs.

Aesopfable · 04/03/2020 00:55

My mind is still boggled that oopster thinks that the nhs only does medical research on ‘people suffering with cancer and similar’ and in every other field and condition the nhs is at a standstill and only ever uses established interventions and never seeks improvements, treatments, cures or reductions in adverse events.

R0wantrees · 04/03/2020 01:17

Dodopatrol I'm arguing for more support for these kids, that means more resources so these kinds of things don't happen, but no system is perfect, no system can ever be perfect, it can only be as good as we can possibly make it. Assuming Keira was 100% honest with the clinic, and the right procedures were followed, then no one can really be at fault here.

A year ago Professor Carl Heneghan (Oxford Evidence Based Medicine & BMJ editor) published an important paper:

BMJ EBM Spotlight paper:
'Gender-affirming hormone in children and adolescents – Evidence review'
Posted on 25th February 2019

(extract)
"Gender dysphoria occurs when a person experiences discomfort or distress because of a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity. Gender dysphoria can arise in childhood and adolescent which raises many questions about how best to handle the condition. This post sets out the current evidence for gender-affirming hormones in adolescents and children to aid decision making. (continues)

"Conclusions

There are significant problems with how the evidence for Gender-affirming cross-sex hormone has been collected and analysed that prevents definitive conclusions to be drawn. Similar to puberty blockers, the evidence is limited by small sample sizes; retrospective methods, loss of considerable numbers of patients in follow-up. The majority of studies also lack a control group (only two studies used controls). Interventions have heterogeneous treatment regimes complicating comparisons between studies. Also adherence to the interventions are either not reported or at best inconsistent. Subjective outcomes, which are highly prevalent in the studies, are also prone to bias due to lack of blinding, and many effects can be explained by regression to the mean.

The development of these interventions should, therefore, occur in the context of research. Treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms, including death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice."
blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518188-BMJ-Prof-Carl-Heneghan-Evidence-Based-Medicine-Oxford-Panorama-Trans-Kids-Gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-Evidence-review-concludes-There-are-significant-problems

"Ms Bell's legal team will argue the centre's approach was unlawful because

  1. children could not give informed consent for this kind of treatment and

  2. the potential risks of treatment were not adequately explained"

Paul Conrathe of Sinclairslaw, the solicitor representing [Keira] Bell, said: “The ruling is a significant step towards establishing protection for vulnerable children from experimental treatment that has lifelong consequences.”

In England a child is someone who has yet to reach their 18th birthday.

This is about Safeguarding children & Vulnerable Adults which is a statuatory responsibility

oopster · 04/03/2020 01:34

I'm history going to stop commenting now as it's got to the point where we're not debating anymore.

Aesopfable · 04/03/2020 07:25

Yes it is always difficult to sustain a lie when people start producing facts and evidence and you have none.

Langsdestiny · 04/03/2020 07:37

Every time. Without fail. As I have said a thousand times it wasnt the arguments put forward by feminists that made me change my mind, it was the utter lack of coherent explanations from the 'other side'.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 04/03/2020 08:23

This is a thread for talking about Keira, and others like her.

If you want to debate you need to bring an argument and ‘well, I’m happy with transition’ is irrelevant to Keira.

oopster · 04/03/2020 09:12

Yes it is, but it went off on a tangent.

I stand by my previous comments, she was an adult when she took testosterone and had surgery. She went to the Tavistock, the Tavistock didn't go to her. Her parents will have had to give their ok too, but so far, no mention of those adult(s).

R0wantrees · 04/03/2020 09:18

Was the tangent the posting of Professor Heneghan's paper which concluded,
"The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice."

& the actual basis for the Judicial Review?

oopster · 04/03/2020 09:29

No, it just went off on a general anti trans tangent

R0wantrees · 04/03/2020 09:46

No, it just went off on a general anti trans tangent

I doubt that.

This is about Safeguarding children & Vulnerable Adults which is a statuatory responsibility.

The state, NHS, schools & social services are required to Safeguard & have a Duty of Care.
Safeguarding is also the responsibility of every adult.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 04/03/2020 09:53

Studies on gnhra drugs used for children and adolescents with otherwise healthy bodies isn’t a tangent, it’s the remit of the judicial review.

There are none so blind as to those who refuse to see!

Look, I couldn’t give a rats arse if adults make properly informed decisions regarding transition. I don’t believe it brings the happiness that many transitioners are seeking and it can be very damaging for loved ones (especially wives and children of late transitioners) but I take the JK Rowling point of view, dress however you want, choose your own name, love in the way that suits you as long as it’s consenting and safe.

But tell me a medication is a ‘harmless pause’ and convince my child that it’s the only option of that or suicide and my liberal attitude stops dead. Same with telling me it’s fine to to let rapists self ID into women’s prisons. Trans people exist (although I firmly believe that trans is not one thing) but that’s not a reason for otherwise logical adults to start acting like they’ve been sniffing glue. If someone tells me stuff that is clearly bullshit and might put my children at risk and I am going to research the shit out of your claims.

One of my children is a paediatric oncology patient, another wants to transition. From my fairly unique viewpoint it’s clear that in Britain 2020, children with gender dysphoria are not being treated with the same high standards as children with cancer. And that’s not related to waiting lists (which are way too high for a whole heap of non-fatal chronic conditions, including autism spectrum assessment, gender dysphoria and general adolescent mental health issues).

I’m no big pharma conspiracy theorist or anti vaxxer, ask any oncology parent and 99.99% of them will tell you that big pharma saved our kids lives.

But something has gone badly wrong in paediatric gender medicine, it’s become political, not evidence based.
Trans activists told us that Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD) in teens was made up, despite parents repeatedly saying it’s nothing like what was once called ‘transsexualism’, as has been documented for 60 or so years.
But that new generation of ROGD teenagers are now starting to detransition, because they were never really trans.
If political ideology hadn’t prevented research by people like Littman and Cantor, some of this could be avoided, instead, the mantra is ‘you are trans if you think you are’.
No kid gets chemo on the basis of thinking they might have cancer. Why are we inducing chemical menopause in girls who think they might be boys?

It’s nonsensical, and all fo do with adult transitioners obsession with ‘passing’. They project their difficulties onto kids, imagining that blocking natural puberty would’ve made their own lives better. But look at poor Jazz Jennings - transition complete at 18, with the emotional maturity of a 12/13 year old, has never experienced sexual desire (not even fancying people) and is rapidly developing a binge eating disorder, in front of our very eyes.

Or look at child transitioner, Nikki Tutorials. Looks great on a close cropped screen for make up, but stand Nikki next to an average woman and the woman looks like a character from Honey I Shrunk the Kids.

Childhood transition does not do what trans adults imagine it to do (make you pass) but instead causes a whole heap of other physical issues. One of the Tavistock kids in their study has the bone strength of a geriatric.
You can’t fuck about with a child’s endocrinology and not induce negative consequences.

Paediatric transition is a medical scandal unfolding in real time in front of our eyes.

Keira Bell
DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 04/03/2020 10:02

Here’s a recent article by Bailey and Blanchard together - regardless of whether you believe Blanchard’s particular typography or not, it’s clear that gender dysphoria does not present in the same way for all people. Gender Dysphoria is symptom, not a specific condition. That doesn’t mean that everyone should be prevented from transitioning, but having a better understanding of it means it will be easier to discern those for whom transition is unlikely to bring peace:

One problem with the current mainstream narrative regarding gender dysphoria is that it makes no distinctions among apparently very different kinds of persons. For example, Bruce Jenner appeared to be a very masculine man, an Olympic athlete who was married to three different women and had six children with them, before becoming Caitlyn Jenner. In contrast, Jazz Jennings, a natal male, was so feminine that she earned a diagnosis of gender identity disorder at the age of four. She is attracted to males. Jenner and Jennings are so different in their presentation and history that it is surprising to us that anyone thinks they have the same condition. Jenner and Jennings are examples of two very different kinds of gender dysphoria that have been scientifically well studied, and have fundamentally different motivations, clinical presentations, and likely causes.

The failure of so many therapists and activists to acknowledge this distinction is disturbing for at least two reasons. First, it suggests they are either ignorant of relevant scientific evidence or are purposefully ignoring it. Second, failure to make scientifically valid and fundamental distinctions among different kinds of gender dysphoric persons can only prevent progress toward finding the best approach to helping each. Measles, influenza, and strep throat are all associated with fever. But if we had merely lumped them together as “fever,” we would not have effective treatments for them.

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 04/03/2020 10:13

Being transgender cannot simply be an inborn condition, or we wouldn’t be seeing stories like these:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/16/transition-caused-more-problems-than-it-solved

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-51193849/i-used-gender-transition-as-a-form-of-escape

Some people develop a cross sex identity after suffering trauma and bereavement, of course transition cannot really solve those issues. It’s a well documented phenomenon yet the forward march of gender identity ideology means it’s not being researched, it’s not being identified and people are transitioning unnecessarily:

Marcus Evans, former governor of the Tavistock talks about it here:

quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs/

It won’t be terves that pull down the house of gender cards, it will be detransitioners.
Ironically, if transactivists had listened to terves, there would be far fewer detransitioners and we might never have gotten to this point.

Keira Bell is the tip of the iceberg.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 04/03/2020 16:00

I blamed professional adults in an earlier post

I dont blame many parents...being told by professionals that medication is the Right thing to Do and that it will solve your childs problems and not being told the ins and outs of everything

Many parents aren’t able to research and are probably so fearful that they will believe the experts...even if the experts are coming out with complete bullshit

Dammandblastit · 05/03/2020 10:37

Transition is, in some cases, the "razor blade to the arms" cutting and anorexia of this generation of girls. Sadly, this generation has cheerleaders telling them they're doing the right thing. It's well fucked up.

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