"The Inconvenient Truth about Transwomen", article

[MingeofDeath]

Thoughtful, clear piece from Debbie Hayton about self ID

unherd.com/2020/01/scotlands-gender-recognition-act-is-a-hostage-to-fortune/

I have seen this pop up on twitter a few times and will give it a read.

Whatever happened to the author of the Yogyakarta Principles?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5399247/UNICEF-kids-rights-campaigner-jailed-rape-boy-13.html

That's a very good clear article. Well done Debbie.

Good article.

Although I wish rather than hang everything on that female people have a right to be safe, writers would also remember that female people have a right to group themselves and separate themselves as a biological class purely to have the privacy, dignity and freedom from embarrassment considered normal in our society .

A male person may wish to identify as a woman and wish everyone to believe they are a woman. This does not mean there is the slightest difference to the experiences of female people between that self identified male body and the men in the men's single sex spaces next door. None.

I wholly respect that some people don't identify as their biological sex and want an alternative provision. I believe they should have it if they want it. I don't believe female people should lose the right to ever be apart from male people or be expected to perceive some kind of difference between male bodies depending on the subjective announcement of the male's inner sense of self. And that's a sentence I've written thinking dear God, I live in a time and place where I actually have to spell this out.

And as I say over and over again - and Debbie I get this is not easy - what happens to the female people who cannot share a single sex space with any male, regardless of how that male identifies or the extent of their transition? Do we just shun all orthodox females, those with disabilities causing perceptual issues, the traumatised, the anxious, the raped? Because until males wanted into female spaces, female spaces successfully served all females.

Should we chuck out a proportion of females and deny them any space at all so males can be assured of two spaces they can choose from? How is that fair unless you automatically view male people as intrinsically more important and valuable than female ones?

Fantastic post Michelle, agree with every word.

writers would also remember that female people have a right to group themselves and separate themselves as a biological class purely to have the privacy, dignity and freedom from embarrassment considered normal in our society

Absolutely right, and victims of abuse should not have to put themselves in a position of having to disclose abuse in order to achieve this, like with the YHA guidelines.

Mockers - I had not read, or had forgotten that article so did not know about the author of the Yogyakarta Principles; there seem to be so many that go down that same route. He was involved in so many charities too.

Personally I love the freedom and ease of women-only spaces..... and am just longing to know that they are OURS again. It will happen - but tis taking a LONG time!

Yes I am passionate about having them back for those that need them most, and who will not be able to use them in the current scenario....

But also for the large number of us who just want to relax.... the feeling of being relaxed and unthreatened in any way... the joy of that ease of just being in a women-only space

Self ID into women's spaces by befriending feminists, writing think pieces and dictating pronouns in schools, or self ID into women's spaces by #nodebate and denouncing TERFs- the result is the same but the latter approach at least has the virtue of being honest.

Anybody who lauds transexuals in a feminist space (which FWR is) excludes their wife and other female relatives from accessing that support.

With regards the Yogycarta Principles I think the majority of women here will credit Sheila Jeffries for bringing them to awareness.

Speech from the We Need To Talk / Inconvenient Women event (6/13/18)

threads from 2018 with research & background:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228002-Yogyakarta-principles

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3284051-yogyakarta-principles-plus-10

Hayton's written yet another 'do as I say not what I do' piece?

Fab, can't wait to read that.

female people have a right to group themselves and separate themselves as a biological class purely to have the privacy, dignity and freedom from embarrassment considered normal in our society

this, for me

Tinsel I read this really clear & important article hosted by 'MakeMoreNoise' during my break. I hope it was shared on FWR:

'A Plea for Help for Feminists from a Trans Widow'
Oct 17, 2019
concludes:
"Don’t exclude some women from feminism in the interests of inclusiveness. Imagine seeking support from other women, only to find that your husband or father had got there first?

When you allow our ex partners space in your feminism and give them platforms in your organisations and at your meetings, you exclude their wives, daughters, sisters and mothers from accessing these spaces and making use of resources that were set up to support women like them. Prioritise women over your desire to have a “get out of jail free” card to hold up against hostile accusations of bigotry

Above all, the most important thing that you can do to help trans widows, is to centre women and girls in your feminism."

makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/a-plea-for-help-for-feminists-from-a-trans-widow

Anybody who lauds transexuals in a feminist space (which FWR is) excludes their wife and other female relatives from accessing that support

I see Hayton's repeated articles on this a bit like Trump writing about how you should be nice to other people. I mean I agree with the sentiment but it's a bit rich isn't it?

I keep hoping that Hayton will stop self ID-ing into women's spaces and compelling their speech (and I believe the speech of young female students) because reading that article you'd think DH would get it.

I hope DH's wife is ok.

Thanks R0, my afternoon has just been hugely improved by spending half an hour with Sheila Jeffreys. It is balm to my (possibly over tired) soul.

Anybody who lauds transexuals in a feminist space (which FWR is) excludes their wife and other female relatives from accessing that support.

One would hope*, that having befriended feminists and therfore understanding the problems, that they would feel the need to self-exclude.

• I know it is a vain hope. Ever the optimist.

Thanks R0, my afternoon has just been hugely improved by spending half an hour with Sheila Jeffreys. It is balm to my (possibly over tired) soul.

You do a great deal to support & care for women & their children. Im glad women are supportive of you too &

One would hope, that having befriended feminists and therfore understanding the problems, that they would feel the need to self-exclude.

Apparently not.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605090-Boundaries-and-Allies

@Michelleoftheresistance

Great post. I have been composing my letter to my MP - yet to send. I have written about privacy and dignity as well as safety - but I will include some of what you have written too (amended) if that’s ok as you have set out the points so clearly.

Your stance is unarguable to me - yet will be argued!

One would hope, that having befriended feminists and therfore understanding the problems, that they would feel the need to self-exclude.

I know it is a vain hope

But it shouldn't be a vain hope.

I know plenty of men who are supportive of feminism. Many of them initially tried to join feminist groups or attend feminist events, then realised that this isn't how it works.

Although I wish rather than hang everything on that female people have a right to be safe, writers would also remember that female people have a right to group themselves and separate themselves as a biological class purely to have the privacy, dignity and freedom from embarrassment considered normal in our society .

Yes, me too.

Sometimes it really can be worth thinking about whether a particular group or space needs to be single sex. Maybe a previously all-woman knitting group should let a man who likes to knit come in. It's good to be open with people and try and be social.

But I still want privacy in some spaces even when I am not at all concerned about being safe.

Thin please do take whatever helps.

One would hope, that having befriended feminists and therfore understanding the problems, that they would feel the need to self-exclude.

But when you read that thread or really look at these conversations you see something that another MNetter pointed out to me at the time. That there is at the bottom of it, a paternalism that believes males will decide what females may have. Female rights are seen as a gift or a loan based on the good will of males in the situation. I have a very serious problem with that, as any female should.

Having to disclose abuse brings the whole thing back again with the associated traumatic feelings. Not acceptable.

If brexit then can we ditch 2048?

That there is at the bottom of it, a paternalism that believes males will decide what females may have. Female rights are seen as a gift or a loan based on the good will of males in the situation. I have a very serious problem with that, as any female should.

This ^^

Many of these rights are inexplicably related to consent and/or inform the Safeguarding of girls & vulnerable women.

At this point I pretty much read "kids rights" as a dogwhistle for pedophilia, because that's what it's so often proven to be.

While safety is obviously vital it's really only the starting point of why women need our own spaces. The fact that even that basic level of consideration isn't being taken into account speaks volumes, but in terms of the other reasons we want and need women's spaces not being mentioned I'd point out that a. Debbie most likely does not understand those reasons because Debbie is not female and b. when the focus is on safety only that opens the door to those arguing that if someone has had their penis removed they're no longer a potential thread and thus should be allowed in. So it's a case of pay close attention to the ways in which the argument used serve the person making it rather than women as a group.