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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"The Inconvenient Truth about Transwomen", article

37 replies

MingeofDeath · 24/01/2020 15:14

Thoughtful, clear piece from Debbie Hayton about self ID

unherd.com/2020/01/scotlands-gender-recognition-act-is-a-hostage-to-fortune/

OP posts:
OldCrone · 24/01/2020 22:22

Whatever happened to the author of the Yogyakarta Principles?

What was Peter Newell's involvement with the Yogyakarta Principles? I can't see his name in the list of authors of either the original principles or the +10. Or were you referring to someone else mentioned in that article?
yogyakartaprinciples.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/principles_en.pdf
yogyakartaprinciples.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/A5_yogyakartaWEB-2.pdf

R0wantrees · 24/01/2020 22:31

So it's a case of pay close attention to the ways in which the argument used serve the person making it rather than women as a group.

TheProdigalKittensReturn this paragraph stood out:

"Trans people who risk losing the goodwill we rely on. Attempts to change the law to our advantage by policing the words — and even the thoughts — of others will not end well for us. If the Scottish Government doesn’t see the problem, others will and those people may find popular support and rebuild society in a way that is genuinely unkind to us."

LangTimeNoWeetabix · 24/01/2020 22:50

OldCrone Newall wrote the UNICEF Implementation Handbook for the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. which incorportated the Yogyataka principles in the 3rd edition. Sex was removed and gender put in.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3534509-Mail-article-children-going-into-care-to-change-sex
archive.christianconcern.com/our-issues/family-and-sexual-ethics/the-abusers-behind-the-idea-that-children-have-a-gender-identity
www.unicef.org/publications/files/Implementation_Handbook_for_the_Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child_Part_1_of_3.pdf

OldCrone · 24/01/2020 23:04

Yes, I was aware that Newell wrote the UNICEF Implementation Handbook for the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (I posted the link on that earlier thread), but he wasn't involved with drafting the Yogyakarta principles (as far as I know). I just think it's important to be accurate about who was involved with what. Sorry if that sounds like pedantry.

LangTimeNoWeetabix · 24/01/2020 23:11

You are right - that was the only link between him and the YP I could find on google.

TheBewildernessisWeetabix · 24/01/2020 23:23

I have not been able to read anything from Hayton since I saw that video with Hayton's long suffering wife.
I have seen her face a thousand thousand times in my working days and it cuts me to the quick.

BickerinBrattle · 25/01/2020 01:35

The Second Wave would never have taken off the way it did if women could never have met to consciousness-raise or organise free from the presence of males.

I’ve done a LOT of feminist organising and time after time I’ve witnessed the effect of male presence: either 1) their own inevitable centering of themselves or 2) the point at which a woman pushes for something that is a bridge too far, in the male view.

Hayton is attempting to define just where that bridge too far is: right at the place short of where we fear assault. Which set us up for all sorts of questions re: data on assault cases (which is nearly impossible to find for reasons we all are already aware of) and a comparison of the risk TW’s feel in male spaces vs. the risk we are in in female spaces.

Because so many men in general refuse to accept the level of male violence against women, this is an argument that puts us on the back foot right from the start.

And Tinsel is right: feminism is for females, and it’s there to support the wives and children harmed by male action, which includes the action of gaining a name for oneself as the voice of reason on an issue that, fundamentally, stands on a platform of unreason: it still remains impossible, no matter what medical or surgical technique is employed, to change sex.

GeordieTerf · 25/01/2020 10:45

The male-bodied people in this movement need to realize that the grassroots slog of this movement is, and has been, done by natal women. For that reason, it should also be natal women at the front of the movement, leading us, speaking for us, and representing us.

Make-bodied people who are offered the mic should be passing it onto natal women.

Babieseverywhere · 25/01/2020 10:54

"I have not been able to read anything from Hayton since I saw that video with Hayton's long suffering wife.
I have seen her face a thousand thousand times in my working days and it cuts me to the quick."

Ditto. Everytime I see or hear Hayton, I think of their wife. She was in so much pain a broken woman coping with a terrible situation forced on her by her spouse and yet Hayton was so happy and didn't seem to notice anything was wrong.

I really hope that documentary shows a bad day for her and that Mrs Hayton has better happier days.

OldCrone · 25/01/2020 10:59

Everytime I see or hear Hayton, I think of their wife. She was in so much pain a broken woman coping with a terrible situation forced on her by her spouse and yet Hayton was so happy and didn't seem to notice anything was wrong.

That scene is imprinted on my memory. The pain on Mrs Hayton's face, and Dr Hayton's look of incomprehension, as though they had not considered the appalling effects of their transition on the rest of the family.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 25/01/2020 11:05

And the realization that if the sexes had been reversed everyone would have been appalled by the female spouse's behavior, and there would not have been an expectation that the male spouse would stay in the marriage no matter the cost to them.

Langbannedforsafeguardingkids · 25/01/2020 19:14

And the realization that if the sexes had been reversed everyone would have been appalled by the female spouse's behavior, and there would not have been an expectation that the male spouse would stay in the marriage no matter the cost to them.

This is a really good point Kittens.

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