Lisa Nandy: Trans women are women

[jadefinch]

And when a Conservative MP says women's spaces such as prisons and refuges need to be protected from some men who say they are women, she replies 'not what he says'.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0008jqx?fbclid=IwAR2hx7vFoCI7arspHgCsmu7DdiF9qSDpTezzFSgbYKR8S-9zKejfbOYyJQQ

The question starts at 42 minutes and 48 seconds

A contempt for psephology is all too common on the ideological Left. They want to 'win the argument' to their satisfaction, not the election.

Has anyone else read The Road to Somewhere by David Goodhart? I highly recommend it.

I wonder if that's where voters' expectations have now lost touch with the reality of the Labour party;

Voters are used to a lifetime of two party politics and want both the two main parties to provide the option of a realistic government that can win an election by evolving with the times, listening and responding to the majority of voters' beliefs and needs. And there's a lot of tribal history and expectation of what and whom Labour used to stand for and represent.

However the Labour party seem intent now on being a party dedicated to that very specific argument and point of view, with their interest on furthering this rather than engaging with voters and the country, and being an option for a realistic government. Which is fine, but it comes with accepting this won't appeal to many voters who don't share those very specific views and interests, and that Labour isn't likely to win an election. And it leaves voters in limbo with no meaningful opposition.

The time is very ripe for a new centre left party that has its feet on the ground.

The current Labour candidates are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they said “We are going to end free movement of people, commit to reducing immigration and I believe biological sex exists” they would probably instantly win the support of many disenfranchised Labour voters. However, there is no way that the current Labour membership would support them.

Sadly, they are a pretty uninspiring bunch anyway.

But TWAW is an extremely conservative social position!

RuffleCrow
How So? Do you mean Conservative with a small c?

In deeply conservative countries like Pakistan, you are "allowed" to be transgender but not "allowed" to be gay.

That's interesting. The UK isn't a deeply socially conservative country though. Although, maybe more than believed. It does seem to be the case that kids are being convinced they can trans the gay away.
Better trans than gay and all that.

It is to do with the internet and the influence of (deeply conservative) America I feel.
The UK has a great tradition of being pretty accepting of men breaking gender norms, we are culturally and emotionally worlds away from the US, but the US take on transgenderism is having a massive influence on us now. Particularly on those too young to remember the 70s and 80s

A little more about how deeply conservative countries (Iran in this case) accept being trans over gay

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29832690

@Hulo
Yep - progressive Iranian theocratic trail blazers!

Like Pakistan. Happy bedfellows for Stonewall, Amnesty, Labour, SNP, Greens ... ? Tories - not showing cards yet after consultation???

Perhaps P(l)ink Plonk news could do another video, like they did about Pakistan - extolling the virtues of trans policy state funded physical erasion of the gay population.

Meanwhile the under 5 mortality rate in Pakistan is 74/1000 births. No state money to save the lives of children.

They don’t care about children. Sound familiar anyone?

I'm rubbish with politics and only took notice of Nandy's stepping back letter to Corbyn when a number of his cabinet resigned front of house posts and went back to the back benches as she was a childhood friend (don't even know the political terminology!), and I do remember it was specifically because Corbyn was too divisive and she asked him to try to unify the party. She knew they had no chance if they went ultra left wing.

Also, I have been considering that more people voted Tory in the north last time because actually, it makes them take notice of us and our needs. Which it did.

The triggernometry episode is interesting.

Unite sec, Len McCluskey, on Andrew Marr arguing that Long-Bailey is the best candidate now to win hearts and minds in the lost heartlands with her commitment to ‘radical’ policies. Despite Marr pointing out that people in the lost heartlands don’t want a ‘continuity Corbyn candidate’ and using a direct quote to back it up. McCluskey in total denial of that being a vote loser, “well of course she [woman quoted] doesn’t want a continuity candidate, she didn’t want Corbyn in the first place”. Completely missing the point that it wasn’t about one woman’s vendetta.

DeathByPuppy Len proves time and time again that he will just dismiss any opinion that doesn’t match his own. This caller obviously had a much better idea of the opinions of Labour voters than Len did during the election campaign...

He’s infuriating

Getting further to the triggernometry interview, it's really bang on analysis.

I hope Lisa or her team come across it and watch it, her background and education do mean that she both has the capacity to understand what he's saying. She's also one of the 'types' of middle class MPs he names as the problem.

Though I can't help feeling that if politicians are required to have a good ability to think critically about these types of analysis they do need highly educated people on their teams or to be highly educated and have those skills to transfer analysis to practical politics.

I thought the use of language from the tories around GRA this week was interesting. When Dawn Butler raised a question in Parliament, the answer started with 'protecting' women's spaces, mentioned the rights of 'adult' trans people. Interesting...must have rattled Dawn Butler.

TheRealMcKenna

"The current Labour candidates are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they said “We are going to end free movement of people, commit to reducing immigration and I believe biological sex exists” they would probably instantly win the support of many disenfranchised Labour voters. However, there is no way that the current Labour membership would support them."

That sums up nicely how I feel about them. They have forgetten or simply ceased to care about their core voters. In fact it is worse than that, they refer to them as "bigoted" when it suits them.

That sums up nicely how I feel about them. They have forgetten or simply ceased to care about their core voters. In fact it is worse than that, they refer to them as "bigoted" when it suits them.

Yes, and this is a massive problem in Western democracies at the moment.

From Matthew Goodwin via Twitter:

“Centre-left at latest election

UK Labour
Lowest seats since 1935

Austria
Lowest since 1945

Germany
2nd lowest since 1949

France
Lowest ever

Italy
Lowest ever

Netherlands
Lowest ever

Sweden
Lowest since 1908

Finland
2nd lowest since 1962

Maybe it's not just about Brexit?”

Quite.

Brexit was a part of the same phenomenon, rather than a cause.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/26/why-should-keir-starmer-aside---his-rivals-have-few-feminist-credentials

Interesting article as I can see flaws. Namely that Stramer is not a feminist as TWAW.

Nandy is not personally at ease with brexit at all. I know this via a mutual friend. If she didn't show some support for it she would have lost her seat, and labour needed her to stay.

I can't help feeling the same exists with TWAW in that they have to pick and choose the perceived "least damaging" lefty things to include in their campaign.

Also, as a pp has said, the radio 4 programme was pre Swinson.

Can you get the mutual friend to ask about TWAW v TWAT?

Although I do worry that anyone even vaguely GC will be piled on, a la Laura Pidcock.

I’ve heard two of the deputy candidates have serious reservations re: the clash of women’s rights and trans rights, but wouldn’t want to post publicly about it in case it makes them less likely to win the membership.
Once they are in role, different story.
That said, not all of the membership are so out of step with the public, at least not up north.

I have wondered that but she's not a close mate of mine, and not frequently in touch with Nandy. She mentioned the brexit thing at a random house party recently. I've seriously considered contacting Nandy myself. But I'm not in labour and no idea if I'd be taken seriously.

Although I do worry that anyone even vaguely GC will be piled on, a la Laura Pidcock. exactly.

Once they are in role, different story.
Why should I believe a word they say? One of the qualities I would always look for in a leader / deputy leader is courage. Another quality is - well... leadership.