Lang Cleg 2

[TiredofthisBSbutIstandwithLang]

New thread as we got to 1000.

Now, here for example, are you trying to goad people to say that they disagree with the MN mods, and thereby get them banned?

No, I’m joining in a discussion, challenging things I think are unfair, and sticking up for MNHQ.

Still no answer to my point about the silencing tactics used by TRAs. Why is that, I wonder?

It was a way back, lots of posts since then, and didn’t mention TRAs but an undefined them, they, these people. So no, not answering your random whataboutery question. Sorry.

May we know who's 'being kept a special eye on' atm, Hebe? (And only asking Hebe because she mentioned the 'keeping an eye on')

Many pro-gender posters on MN insist there is no such phenomenon as ROGD and concur with Jess Phillips that transwidow are akin to abusive men who restrict their partners reproductive autonomy. Have any of these posters requested that transwidows or ROGD parents be 'kept an eye on' ?

I think it's important to know before I encourage any other parent to post on the ROGD support thread, for example, and I'm sure the widows would also like to know if they are subject to any special moderating oversight as the result of member reporting.

I have no idea how to bring these questions to a mods attention and get an answer, so if anyone can help me amplify these particular questions that would be much appreciated, ty.

Also, would prefer a female mod to answer, if any mods see fit.

I believe in Lang

Same here @MsMcWibble

Yup. I believe in Lang.

Jane, I just reported your post with this message:

‘Reporting this as a signpost as it asks a direct question of the moderating team (I’m also a parent of a ROGD kid so am interested in the answer). It’s not a ‘report-report’!’

(I also included a thank you to the mod team and the optimistic wish that Lang will eventually be reinstated, full disclosure)

MN is so disappointing.

"Datun*

Justine told us. She warned more than once about the pressure that they were under and the balance they had to achieve. That has been the case whether it's MRAs or TRAs. FWR is a beacon to the haters, the antagonists, the smug, the trolls, all of them. MNHQ created this place at the request of Dittany and others and they have stuck by it when all hell has been breaking loose. Their support is unwavering but not unconditional - how can it be when they have duties to employers, advertisers, posters etc ? That's not inside knowledge, it's an awareness that businesses cannot allow themselves to be a hostile environment. When tribunals are coming down in favour of women's rights ending as soon as a TW's feelings are hurt, MN are in a world of pain if they ignore that. Whether we like it or not, the legal position of MN as an employer in terms of protected characteristics is entirely different from that experienced by you or I as anonymous individuals on an internet forum. That's not coercive control being exerted against them, it's MN demonstrating good business practice. And like it or not, losing a couple of posters along the way, is, I would imagine, an acceptable (even if reluctant) price to pay to continue their business.

MNHQ provide the forum - why do we need them to validate us by taking sides to prove that they support women's rights ? The provision of the forum is their support. We're so used to it being there that we take it for granted. Why do they have to have a publically stated position ? Aren't we doing to them what TRA's are doing to other organisations ?

Posters on here do an amazing job in bringing issues to light and providing facts and data to support their views but there is a tendency on all sites to develop group think. You see it in the way that Linner could do no wrong, that Yardley was practically deified and it took almost two years before other posters were questioning why men were lionised when women were doing the heavy lifting.

There has been inconsistency and that needs to be addresses but sometimes voicing another view on here feels like facing down a train. A train that we might all want to be on but one which some of us think is heading towards a gap in the tracks. Maybe MNHQ feel that way as well ? If we lose you posters in the gap, we run the risk of losing it all.

I honestly don't think MNHQ are asking us to be meek. I think they're firstly asking us to be kind and secondly to be clever. It's never just words on a screen.

@WotchaTalkinBoutWillis no I don't think @MNHQ or Justine have actually made a decision. Or if they have then it certainly doesn't allow for safeguarding my child.
I joined this site when I was 12 weeks pregnant. It's been a constant source of support to me as a Mum. Breastfeeding, splitting up with my abusive partner. I could go on. I've had so much help it honestly changed my life. But I will happily switch to another site that completely supports Women.

Thank you DuLANGMondeFOREVER

So reporting one's own posts the best way ? Will remember for the future.

I hope we get a straightforward answer. I did ask on site stuff, but that doesn't seem to be on the radar.

In terms of “who do we believe”; it’s not about belief, it’s about evidence*...Exhibit A, years of posts from a poster who was consistent in their understanding and recognition of a) safeguarding and b) coercive control, the importance of the former and the use of the latter including, increasingly, on MN itself - posters and mods. Exhibit B, a post from a mod demonstrating a fundamental misunderstanding of the point said poster was making.

I don’t have to make any leap of faith, it’s right there in black and white on these pages.

*the whole damned ‘women v TRAs’ issue in a nutshell TBH

I think they're firstly asking us to be kind

I'm not saying this about the mods and their motivations! but I experience this request as gaslighting and abusive.

My abuser (and the people supporting him) were always on about my lack of kindness being a CAUSE of abuse.

I personally think that when you are dealing with a largely female user base, a large % of whom will have experienced or be experiencing abuse, that the request 'first, be kind' - either overt or covert - should be examined.

Exactly, OnlyTheTit

Actually, Hebe, as nice as you always seem when you moderate here, the idea that mods will agree to 'keep an eye on posters' at the behest of other posters (whose motivations you cannot adequately assess) gives me the shivers.

Gives me the shivers too, it's almost akin to the police calling round to check your thinking...

I miss her already.

I think they're firstly asking us to be kind

I could write an essay on why women being socialised to “be kind” is part of the problem and how it gives a spurious legitimacy to dismissing women’s valid anger/assertiveness; about how frequently women are tone policed so the focus is pulled to the how rather than the what is being said and much more on the same theme, but it’s late and I’m tired.

Shouldn't everyone be kind ? Isn't the problem not that women are kind but that men aren't ?

Reflecting some more, I think having Lang around made me feel safer. It's hard, with a history of abuse, to trust that people will see through the charming b/s of your abuser. I trusted that Lang was one such person, and that she was the kind of person who would encourage others to become trustworthy for abuse survivors.

We all know that 'safe spaces' are understood, expected and required for other groups of people, including transgender people. I don't think it's too much to ask that FWR is a safe space for abuse victims and survivors.

Without hyperbole, I feel less safe here now that Lang is gone, and discussion of cc is likely to be repressed by the reaction to Lang from mods.

I'm wondering how that fits in with the demands for 'kindness'. Surely, on a feminism board, it's OK to prioritise kindness to women ?

Shouldn't everyone be kind

Not at the expense of their own or others safety, no. Nobody should be put in a vulnerable position because of pressure to be (or be seen as) kind.

and concur with Jess Phillips that transwidow are akin to abusive men who restrict their partners reproductive autonomy.

I appreciate the support, but have to say that's not how I interpreted what Jess Phillips said. I interpreted it to mean that if she was going to physically "transition" she didn't think her husband should have a say in it.
(of course that's not what the law says but that's another topic).

I'm truly sorry that a source of support to you is no longer on here, janeskettle but FWR is not a safe place in the way you need it to be. It never has been as it's an open forum and anyone can post on here.

With that being said, maybe mindful would be a better word than kind ?

Justine told us. She warned more than once about the pressure that they were under and the balance they had to achieve. That has been the case whether it's MRAs or TRAs. FWR is a beacon to the haters, the antagonists, the smug, the trolls, all of them. MNHQ created this place at the request of Dittany and others and they have stuck by it when all hell has been breaking loose. Their support is unwavering but not unconditional - how can it be when they have duties to employers, advertisers, posters etc ? That's not inside knowledge, it's an awareness that businesses cannot allow themselves to be a hostile environment

Have to say I agree with what you saying. And as with boycotting J.Lewis and M&S, and all the others...I think we have to be aware that the position we find ourselves in is quite fragile and delicately balanced. Businesses have to operate within a climate...and no business is going to willingly, or happily, put themselves out of business or subject to too much negative publicity.

It's tough - but my feeling is that we have truth on our side, and that this is a long term struggle - for light, and for reason. We are in the grip of a kind of very particular insanity.......but in time it will recede, as people and institutions become more conscious of what is really going on and of the negative impacts it is having.

Meanwhile we do need to be judicious - but also, very importantly, to form connections and links off the internet - so that the campaign can continue without prejudice and obvious interference. It strikes me that so much of modern culture, and certainly trans culture, relies on on-line platforms. Out there.....most people have not really got a clue ...even if they are familiar with the concept of transgenderism.

Did we really just get told we should all be "kind" ?

No. I will be kind in kind

My feelings of "kindness" (such as they were) became permanently extinguished after certain folk posted and others failed to denounce the skeleton dancing over the grave a wonderful young woman

I can't do that any more

maybe mindful would be a better word

It kind of freaks me out, but I can own that as my personal response. It probably is a better word than kindness.

I don't understand why a feminism board can't be at least a partially safe and understanding place for women, and I don't understand why, conversely, it gets to be made 'safe' for another group of people through control of language.