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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Lang Cleg 2

999 replies

TiredofthisBSbutIstandwithLang · 22/01/2020 12:17

New thread as we got to 1000.

OP posts:
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11
Cohle · 22/01/2020 18:50

You are unwittingly being used to abuse and harass women posting in good faith on this forum.

How can you possibly think that that is anything other than a rude and hurtful accusation towards the moderator team?

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 22/01/2020 18:51

MNHQ not covering themselves in glory today I see

Flowers Hebe

and yay! R0wantrees is back!!
truly every cloud has a silver lining

right, back up to finish reading the thread...

Blistory · 22/01/2020 18:52

The TRAs referred to on here didn't get Langcleg or others banned. They are just not that clever, organised or effective.

The ones who aren't preaching/screeching/wailing etc on social media are the ones who are the influencers and everytime we turn attention to the JPs of this world, we lose sight of those who are the real threat. They're the ones who go quiet and then pop up as an ambassador, a government advisor etc. They're quite happy for the fight to carry on on MN as it gives them space and time elsewhere. MN moderators aren't being used as proxies but the site is being used as a distraction.

NewYearsHumberElla · 22/01/2020 18:52

One of the ways you can tell whether it's control, is the effect, and the effect is booting out a safeguarding proponent from a massively public parenting website

Good point Datun, which goes back to your earlier point about who benefits?

langclegflavoredbananamush · 22/01/2020 18:55

On the basis of her questioning control.

Exactly. This.

Datun · 22/01/2020 18:58

Transactivists are targeting this site. They are targeting mumsnet advertisers. Justine has given interviews and been written up in MSM about it. She has said that they want to curb free speech. She has changed the guidelines to keep twitchy advertisers happy.

It may not be those specific tedious saddos on twitter. But the site is definitely targeted.

There have been numerous times where someone who constantly reports people on a specific thread, is then found crowing on Twitter. It's not unusual.

Don't take prior as an example.

R0wantrees · 22/01/2020 18:59

How can you possibly think that that is anything other than a rude and hurtful accusation towards the moderator team?

Clearly it is believed to be truthful.
If it is the case & women have accurately recognised it how should they describe it?
Should they keep silent?
Which is more important- identifying abuse dynamics or protecting the feelings of people who have not recognised them yet?

Retrofitted · 22/01/2020 19:00

One of the ways you can tell whether it's control, is the effect, and the effect is booting out a safeguarding proponent from a massively public parenting website.

Let’s break that down.

You seem to be saying that the fact that a safeguarding proponent (Lang) was banned from a parenting website (MN) is evidence that MNHQ are being controlled.

So no matter what mn say about their reasons, rationale, discussions, thoughts, processes, boundaries (yes, MNHQ have their own boundaries) that led to the banning, you’re unilaterally attributing it to outside control.

And you’re saying that the fact she was banned is the evidence of the control.

Even though mn have said really really clearly, and quite a few times now, that it was all their own decision, based on user reports and mods’ interactions with Lang.

You still insist that it’s evidence of control, because she talked about safeguarding, so it must be outside control..... and round and round and round....

That’s some impressive circular thinking.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 22/01/2020 19:01

mmm

if you are being abused should you not mention it to people who are unwittingly acting as agents of the abuser, for fear of upsetting them?

seems to be taking politeness a little far, no?

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 22/01/2020 19:01

Exactly, retrofitted

Cwenthryth · 22/01/2020 19:02

You are unwittingly being used to abuse and harass women posting in good faith on this forum.

How can you possibly think that that is anything other than a rude and hurtful accusation towards the moderator team?

I genuinely don’t see how it is a rude, or a hurtful accusation - I really don’t, I’m not being deliberately antagonistic. Can you walk us through why you feel it is? Don’t get me wrong, it’s an very upsetting thing to realise, I can imagine feeling very defensive and lashing out if someone told me this - if I thought there was at least a kernel of truth to it. If I thought it was ridiculous it would be water off a ducks back.

ChristmassySpice · 22/01/2020 19:03

This thread (and the last one) just goes to prove what is important. And what is on womens minds. For very good reason.
Let the debate continue. And let the voices of reason shine through goddammit.

BickerinBrattle · 22/01/2020 19:04

@MNHQ — Do you understand that when LangCleg referenced “monitors” she wasn’t using that word as a synonym for “moderators”?
That she meant an entirely different group of people?

But when you side with these “monitors” over the women who are the products you’re selling to your advertisers, I do hope you’re aware of just who you’re siding with. And when you describe women protesting those decisions as “aggressive” when these same women are subject to violent threats of rape and death, threats to their employment, FFS threats to their children elsewhere, all over the internet, from these “monitors,” I really question your definition of “aggressive” and your sense of proportion.

The discussion on these boards is not taking place in a vacuum.

And the threats of violence, the demand for silencing, the threats to employment are all coming from one direction only — and that’s not from GC feminists. GC feminists have been pleading for the very opposite fo silencing — for actual discussion and debate. And over and over what we hear is: NO. This cannot be discussed, cannot be debated, one cannot even raise a question.

All the threats feminists are enduring are forms of coercive control. All over the internet, women post anonymously or use pseudonyms precisely because of those threats — they have very realistic fears of losing their jobs. Look at how even tenured professors’ employment is under threat, merely for discussing and questioning. Look at how women striving to meet to discuss women’s rights in the context of gender identity rights have to wait to notify attendees of the meeting site until the very last minute —to avert violent protest and both attempted and actual assault.

What Lang was telling you was that each time you side with those issuing these threats, you function, even if unwittingly, as an extension of those threats. Silencing female critical voices is the number one goal of these monitors.

And you have done that.

iguanadonna · 22/01/2020 19:07

I always understood Lang to mean that the misogynists who hate women having this open forum to talk freely amongst ourselves are using the reporting mechanisms to exert coercive control. Not that the moderators are doing so.

She seemed keen for the moderators to recognize the ways they may be being used. Surely the Twitter floating over getting her banned makes this point crystal clear.

I'm not sure whether the idea that she was attributing the coercive control to the moderators is a misunderstanding or a bad faith interpretation, but this was a very poor decision which needs reviewing.

ruby2020 · 22/01/2020 19:09

@retrofitted explained it perfectly.

MNHQ literally have no way to respond, as either way the herd will say they're being brainwashed.

R0wantrees · 22/01/2020 19:11

if you are being abused should you not mention it to people who are unwittingly acting as agents of the abuser, for fear of upsetting them?

A lot of survivors of abuse find theselves in exactly this position & the combination of the fear of possible reactions & empathy for how the information may be experienced can be paralysing.

Identifying, naming & understanding coervice control /abuse dynamics is vital though.

Last year a MN survey found that 38% of Mumsnet users have suffered some form domestic abuse.

Retrofitted · 22/01/2020 19:12

This is MNHQ’s place - they are the hosts, they make the rules.

If you think they’re not treating you the way you wish to be treated you’re free to go.

It seems fair enough that they aren’t willing to continue to host people who continue, (after being listened to, and reassured that that’s not what’s happening, and asked nicely to stop, and given lots of chances) to tell them regularly and insistently that they are being abusive and controlling and are themselves victims of control.

Datun · 22/01/2020 19:12

Lang isn't rude or aggressive, she just isn't. She is persistent, consistent and insistent. Ironically.

The special rules for this board get tightened and re-tightened all the time. There is no doubt, whatsoever, that outside influence has been brought to bear. Otherwise it will just be the same as it always was. Justine herself has said how they walking a tight rope.

I've had to edit posts from years ago, because they don't fit the current rules. Someone has complained.

My point being, the rules have changed because of threats.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 22/01/2020 19:14

well we know where retro stands on the 'should you put politeness above standing up for your self' scale

good to know

NewYearNewTwatName · 22/01/2020 19:14

just to add my voice.

WTF MNHQ!?

Bring LangCleg back.

Procrastinator2 · 22/01/2020 19:15

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 22/01/2020 19:15

Lang isn't rude or aggressive she just isn't
Stated like fact when it's just an opinion.

TiredofthisBSbutIstandwithLang · 22/01/2020 19:15

Not going anywhere Retro.

OP posts:
Datun · 22/01/2020 19:16

This is MNHQ’s place - they are the hosts, they make the rules.

If you think they’re not treating you the way you wish to be treated you’re free to go.

Indeed.

MsMcWibble · 22/01/2020 19:17

They wanted 'No Debate'.
When just telling women to 'shut up' didn't work they used other methods. Some sneaky, like they're doing here. Some more overt - getting talks shut down, getting people fired, threatening violence, banging on windows, Pissing on doorways, being actually violent...
Mumsnet - how can you be part of this? How can you be part of silencing women at the behest of these people?

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