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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stonewall training in school

144 replies

Bluebelliphant · 14/01/2020 21:10

My daughters school has arranged some training for parents about LGBT issues. Apparently it is written by Stonewall. Does anyone know what this might be?

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Datun · 14/01/2020 23:08

The transgender trend school pack takes into account the fact that all children matter in school. And that one protected characteristic is no more important than any other.

It understands that you have to be fair to everyone.

Transactivists demanded it was immediately shredded.

snowblight · 14/01/2020 23:32

It understands that you have to be fair to everyone.

By giving the impression that there's no such thing as being trans? Hmm

Transactivists demanded it was immediately shredded.

The shredder is probably its destination if it gets through the door of most schools.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 14/01/2020 23:33

Hope springs eternal, eh?

OldCrone · 14/01/2020 23:43

By giving the impression that there's no such thing as being trans?

What is your definition of 'being trans'?

Ereshkigal · 14/01/2020 23:49

I could swear I've asked snow that very same question in another thread.

UndergroundOverIt · 14/01/2020 23:51

'Discredited and biased schools pack featured supposed interviews in which everyone suddenly realises they were never trans in the first place.'

Snowblight, do you ever visit the Reddit detrans forum? There are over 8,000 members now, and every day there are scores of new posts from people, many of them teenagers, who do in fact realise that they were never trans in the first place.

My niece is one of them. She started socially transitioning in her teens and had a double mastectomy two years ago; is now in her early twenties and consumed with regret. It's fucking heartbreaking.

The school she attended has the Stonewall schools champion status.

Datun · 15/01/2020 00:05

By giving the impression that there's no such thing as being trans? hmm

Stephanie Davis Arai has had hundreds of children/parents contact her, snow. Daily, hourly. In the context of the fact that they are overwhelming girls, she has said she has yet to see a girl who identifies as trans who isn't either a lesbian, autistic or has suffered from past trauma, usually sexual.

She is concerned about the reasons why so many girls want to transition.

Anyone who can't see that she is 100% about helping kids, however they identify, either isn't listening or doesn't care.

Datun · 15/01/2020 00:07

But you crack on with The shredder is probably its destination if it gets through the door of most schools.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 15/01/2020 00:08

The first trans person I knew well ticked 2 or the 3 boxes (lesbian, sexually abused resulting in trauma). But hey, caring about people like that and wanting to make sure they get the support they need is apparently phobic.

Creepster · 15/01/2020 00:27

I think the best thing to do is print out Stonewall UK definition of terms used and pass it out to the parents and the teens. Then discuss their Humpty Dumpty language rules.

snowblight · 15/01/2020 00:34

she has said she has yet to see a girl who identifies as trans who isn't either a lesbian, autistic or has suffered from past trauma, usually sexual.

She would say that. Probably doesn't help that I think she's admitted only meeting one or two trans people in the last five years or so. Doesn't inspire confidence.

OldCrone · 15/01/2020 00:38

snowblight What is your definition of 'being trans'?

Datun · 15/01/2020 00:56

Doesn't inspire confidence

What? The truth?

🤣

Datun · 15/01/2020 00:57

She would say that.

Correct.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 15/01/2020 01:03

What? The truth?

Gosh, Datun, you can't just go telling people the truth when it annoys them.

Datun · 15/01/2020 01:15

Indeed kittens.

Just reiterating for snow that Stephanie was shortlisted for the John Maddox Prize.

The John Maddox Prize recognises the work of individuals who promote science and evidence, advancing the public discussion around difficult topics despite challenges or hostility.

Sir John Maddox, whose name this prize commemorates, was a passionate and tireless champion and defender of science, engaging with difficult debates and inspiring others to do the same. As a writer and editor, he changed attitudes and perceptions, and strove for better understanding and appreciation of science throughout his long working life.

"Denouncing fearlessly what he believed to be wrong, dishonest or shoddy, he changed attitudes and perceptions, and strove throughout his long working life for a better public understanding and appreciation of science.” – Walter Gratzer

The winner of the John Maddox Prize receives £3000, and an announcement of the winner is published in Nature. The award is presented at a reception hosted at Wellcome Collection in November.

senseaboutscience.org/activities/the-john-maddox-prize/

So, um, illuminating when people like snow insist she's dishonest, biased, inaccurate...yada, yada

GirlDownUnder · 15/01/2020 01:21

I didn’t realise what the John Maddox Prize actually covered. It seems a really worthy award to aspire to. Well done to Stephanie being shortlisted.

noblegiraffe · 15/01/2020 01:27

Can anyone on here please clarify - the Stonewall guidance linked to upthread says that trans children have the legal right to use the toilets and changing rooms of their choice under the Equality Act.

Is that true? A child could inform the school that they are trans and have the immediate legal right to use the other toilets?

HandsOffMyRights · 15/01/2020 06:20

I would be extremely concerned about the Stonewall material in schools - I know, because my child's secondary school uses it and I requested a copy of the pack, which:

  • includes a quiz for year 8s about young people who identify as transgender. What percentage of young people (multiple choice) have attempted suicide. The fake figure it actually gives was debunked by the NHS and Stonewall has already been asked by many groups not to use such dangerous, misleading and false information

*It describes the term homosexual as a 'medical' definition

  • It describes transsexual as an 'old fashioned' term

There are other issues, especially with its glossary of terms that includes 'cis' and that old chestnut 'assigned at birth' Hmm

Transgender teacher Debbie Hayton did a detailed analysis for TES of school guidance from key groups including Transgender Trend, Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence and recommends schools use Transgender Trend's resources.

Noble Jan the Mermaids trainer goes into schools and tells teachers that children should be able to use any toilet if they self ID as that sex and that this is covered by the EA. This was recorded and transcribed (see below). This is incorrect (see Transgender Trend links below Jan's words.

Many parents and teachers have also contacted the DfE and EHRC for clarification regarding 'gender reassignment' in the EA and children.

Jan:
*So toilets, changing rooms, sports, residential. The Equality act is unambiguous its crystal clear. Unisex and gender neutral facilities are absolutely fine, but that’s not a disabled toilet with a sticker on.

But you can’t prevent anyone from using the facilities of the gender with which they identify and are living as. If someone complains, you provide an alternative to the person complaining. THAT IS THE LAW.

If you get a what if? which you will, just replace one protected characteristic with another and ask yourself the question again. So what would happen if you said ‘you can’t use those toilets because you’re Jewish?

Usually if you’ve got a ‘what if?’ just do that and it will quite often just give you the answer and then you can go ‘OK, I can deal with this. It’ll be fine. So that’s for primary schools..*

Transgender Trend has some good advice here on the subject of the EA: www.transgendertrend.com/uk-transgender-rights-legislation/

They say:

After questioning by the campaign group Fair Play for Women, the EHRC was forced to clarify that a person without a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) is treated for sex discrimination purposes as their legal sex. No child under the age of eighteen has a GRC so a male child is still legally male even if he identifies as a girl.

FamilyOfAliens · 15/01/2020 06:21

No that’s not true, noble, and once I’m back from school later I’ll see if I can find the actual wording from the Equality Act that stars they can’t be treated less favourably f than anyone else of the same biological sex.

FamilyOfAliens · 15/01/2020 06:24

Also, this is bullshit:

The shredder is probably its destination if it gets through the door of most schools.

Staff in schools my LEA are downloading the documents themselves now that it’s clear Stonewall’s claim that it’s not compliant with the EA2010 has been revealed to have no basis in fact.

HandsOffMyRights · 15/01/2020 06:35

Stonewall is a lobby group yet the DfE promotes them on its sites.

The Education Act also has strict guidance on schools remaining politically neutral, yet Stonewall continues to act as a govt pressure group and that very government then promotes said lobby group to schools! There's a thread on this here with the exact wording from the Education Act:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3154752-Trans-extremism-schools

HandsOffMyRights · 15/01/2020 06:42

On that thread Rowdywoman1 wrote:

The law and guidance:
Most transgender organisations are political pressure groups in that they try to influence public policy in the interest of their particular cause. Schools are constrained by the duty to comply with Sections 406 and 407 of the Education Act 1996 which forbids ‘the promotion of partisan political views…’
There is also a requirement found in the Prevent Duty and Teaching Controversial Issues for Schools which places a duty on schools to “secure that where political issues are brought to the attention of pupils… they are offered a balanced presentation of opposing views”. So groups trying to influence policy about say changing the use of sex segregated spaces in schools, changing school policy, changing language used in schools etc are acting as political pressure groups and if they are working with pupils there MUST be a balance of views.

Trans pressure groups present themselves as dealing with bullying, vulnerability etc but in addition to this, they are politically influencing school policy and practice - and there are laws about this.

GollyGoshGreat · 15/01/2020 06:58

Snow what’s your interest in this? Are you a parent?

SarahTancredi · 15/01/2020 07:11

I think snows interest is just to tell us we are all wrong. Hmm

Of course they haven't answered any of the simple questions. Like do they think stonewall advise of keeping a childs transition a secret at school even from the parents is safeguarding a child properly. Oh how safe that girl will be suddenly being allowed to go get changed in a room full of boys. And never mind the privacy and dignity of all the children.

And why on earth does not throwing girls under a bus constitute denying existence?