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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jess Phillip's championing the removal of asking the consent of a woman before her marriage changes.

153 replies

FloralFestiveBunting · 05/01/2020 19:00

twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1213887262414581761

Well that's disappointing, to say the least.

OP posts:
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 06/01/2020 18:17

I think spousal escape clause is the best description I have heard.

FlyingOink · 06/01/2020 18:33

Also, I hadn't considered the practical problems of divorcing someone who has changed their birth certificate - assets in a different name/sex etc. and the extra time and cost this would incur.

So it makes sense to end the marriage before the full GRC is issued.

Neither had I until you mentioned it. You're right, it would be a nightmare.

Needmoresleep · 06/01/2020 18:58

Especially if deadnaming were not allowed...

BabyItsAWildWorld · 06/01/2020 19:40

I'm really disappointed.
I believed that she might be brave and speak up for women when the time was right.

This though, is so much worse than the just keeping your powder dry thing, it's ignorance combined with opportunistic brownie points, and a willingness to ignore women's concerns to get when she wants. But play on her background in DV when it suits.

Jess, seriously look what happened to Swinson on this. Her ignorance on this subject was blown out of water publicly.

Speaking truth to power?? Only when it suits you Jess.

ArranUpsideDown · 06/01/2020 22:21

Jess is 100% TWAW & isn’t bothered about throwing women under a bus

I thought this had been known for some time (sadly). I know when various of her support team have dropped in for a hit and run post instructing FWR to support her on some matter or other it hasn't always gone well.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 06/01/2020 22:36

The whole drive by demand that everyone on FWR support your pet politician thing in just very silly in general. We are not anyone's private army.

Ereshkigal · 06/01/2020 22:40

I'm really disappointed.
I believed that she might be brave and speak up for women when the time was right.

Same here. Oh well.

TheTigersWife · 06/01/2020 22:47

One doesn't have to be "gender critical" to understand that if one spouse takes such a fundamental step to change his or her status that it is only fair, by basic principles of contract law, that the other spouse must be given the opportunity of either (a) novating the contract [ie staying married] or (b) terminating it.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 06/01/2020 22:52

And that's what's so frustrating about the whole thing. Anyone should be able to see that changing the fundamental grounds upon which a marriage was agreed to is not something one partner should be allowed to do unilaterally without the other partner having the option of an easy exit.

Needmoresleep · 07/01/2020 09:30

I don't know the vocabulary, but I find the emphasis on background depressing. Yes I can see the advantage of having walked the walk, but not if someone has not gained insight and critical thinking in the process. Jess may have experience of DV or whatever but that does not necessarily have made her an expert, or mean she is any better at formulating good policy.

Ditto she may have sat on Maria Miller's committee and heard all sorts of experts. But does she have the critical skills or curiousity to look further than what is dished up in front of her? Does she have the ability to question party policy or Civil Servants to the extent that they work hard to provide good argument rather than simply reheat what they have heard from lobbyists.

Northern working class voters seem to have decided that regardless of background, Boris is more likely to listen to them and to act in their interests. The jury is very much out on whether they made the right decision. His advisors, like Cummins, have clearly listened to what people are saying. Whether they act, is a different matter. However the fact that Labour lost so many key seats is a massive indictment of their leadership, and perhaps of their method of choosing leaders.

Real political skills presumably include an ability to listen and to reflect. Not simply parrot the PC du jour. Intelligence, critical thinking, empathy, and humanity surely need to be more important than background.

(If it were me choosing, I would like to see Yvette Cooper. But it is no longer that sort of Labour party.)

RoyalCorgi · 07/01/2020 09:37

Real political skills presumably include an ability to listen and to reflect. Not simply parrot the PC du jour. Intelligence, critical thinking, empathy, and humanity surely need to be more important than background.

Absolutely.

nettie434 · 07/01/2020 10:29

Needmoresleep Yes to the importance of the ability to think critically and be empathic. Yes to Yvette Cooper too Sad.

Sometimes the emphasis on personal experience merges with identity politics. By definition, policies that help women will need to be completely comprehensive and will vary across women in different situations and at different stages of their life.

Jaxhog · 07/01/2020 10:58

I was puzzled by this, so did some background reading. This veto is something of an anomaly. While I certainly don't think anyone should be trapped in a marriage against their will, I also don't think finding out your spouse is transgender is any different from finding out they are abusive, unfaithful or gay. All are (or should be) grounds for unreasonable behaviour in marriage and grounds for divorce.

Not that I'd vote for Jess Phillips in any scenaro!

ArranUpsideDown · 07/01/2020 11:18

By definition, policies that help women will need to be completely comprehensive and will vary across women in different situations and at different stages of their life.

And those women+ who may yet find themselves comprehensively changing their minds on some topics to which they're currently giving full-throated support at the expense of other women.

+I'm thinking of the women who are:
demonstrating against other women and feel it appropriate to shout abuse at them (and their newborn) for attending a women's rights event;
happy to give up rights and protections that they don't currently appreciate on behalf of all women.

Arthritica · 07/01/2020 11:37

I think it’s pretty fundamental, @Jaxhog - if my husband can legal force a change that say he is now my wife and I am in a lesbian marriage, that doesn’t just change his identity, it changes mine.
And it attempts to erase my lived experience and our history.
To completely rewrite the terms of the marriage that way should only be possible if both parties agree, or the union can be dissolved.

TinselAngel · 07/01/2020 12:31

l, I also don't think finding out your spouse is transgender is any different from finding out they are abusive, unfaithful or gay. All are (or should be) grounds for unreasonable behaviour in marriage and grounds for divorce.

Some trans widows do divorce on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour, but this requires consent from the respondent, so is not wholly reliable in its own.

If you think it's no different to finding out they are gay, you really need to read the trans widows threads.

nauticant · 07/01/2020 12:39

Having read the trans widows thread, the importance is the spousal consent provision is that since the women are likely to be struggling to deal with controlling narcissists, giving the women some leverage to reach a settlement to enable them to escape would seem to be very important.

Can't imagine this kind of reality-based thinking of being permitted though.

TinselAngel · 07/01/2020 12:39

I think given the amount of trans widows that there are on mumsnet, it would be fairer if posters asked us what it is like, rather than assuming.

TinselAngel · 07/01/2020 12:40

That wasn't aimed at you nauticant. Cross post.

Arthritica · 07/01/2020 12:41

Very true, Tinsel, and I apologise for speaking out of turn.

Ericveis · 07/01/2020 19:41

It was this completely bonkers ideology that me, a middle of the road , remainer stand in the ballot box and say i WANT to vote Liberal... I love their policies on everything..: BUT I can't do that ! (In the immortal words of meatloaf.. ) so my vote went to labour in an area where if ALL other parties voted together, we would still have been 15k short of the conservatives...

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 08/01/2020 13:03

I have a lot more faith in someone who stays quiet on this, as that suggests they either haven't engaged with it yet, or that they know that there are "two sides" and they recognise that women have a point. So I guess it will have to be Lisa Nandy I will be hoping wins. For now. Until she ruins it.

bd67th · 08/01/2020 23:34

They already are prepared to rewrite history about the place that the marriage took place for someone with a GRC "[w]here the original marriage certificate indicates the marriage was solemnized according to religious rites, or on religious premises, a new certificate will remove this information, indicating instead that the marriage took place in a registry office."

"The past was alterable. The past had never been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.

Aware that Oldcrone said similar already but the quote really hammers it home. What trans activists demand isn't state recognition of a change of legal sex, it's legal erasure of their biological sex from all records, a state-sanctioned and -mandated memory hole. (Note: the linked online copy of 1984 is heavily abridged.)

HoneysuckleSpeck · 08/01/2020 23:37

She’s ghastly.

acatcalledjohn · 11/01/2020 13:05

I'm surprised that this has come from a woman who has been subjected to vile misogynistic "banter".

A marriage is a contract. If one party wishes to change the terms of the contract then either the other party agrees, or the contract is voided.

Forcing one party to accept a change of terms is contrary to a partnership.

Fuck off Jess. You seemed sensible. Clearly you are just a wannabe woke twat.