York theatre royal toilets

[pigsknickers]

I visited today and was irritated to find that one of the two women's toilets is now unisex (and yes the men still have two to themselves). Here's the text of the email I've written them; I'm planning to c&p it to any venues I come across who've pulled this stunt from now on. Awaiting waffle bollocks response.

"I visited the theatre today with my mum and two small children, and I want to tell you how appalled we were to find you've designated one of the two female toilet facilities as unisex, while the men still have two single sex facilities. There are so many reasons why we found this to be a misjudged move on your part:

1. Women need more, not fewer public toilets than men. We are often looking after small children or elderly female relatives in the toilets. We need more time and space to deal with menstruation (which we really don't want to do in a shared space with men). Many venues suffer from long queues to use the ladies' as it is. When I visited today, the toilets in question were full of women trying to toilet their children, with men adding to the overcrowding (while there was a men-only facility just next door). Yes, I could have used the women-only toilets upstairs, but with two small children in tow I had neither the time nor the energy to drag them up two flights of stairs.
2. Men's toilets are dirty. Men tell us this all the time; many men take steps to ensure they won't have to use a cubicle while they're out, because men urinate on the seats and floor. This gets worse in venues where alcohol is served.
3. Women need privacy away from men when performing intimate functions. I sometimes have very heavy periods, and do not want to wash blood off my hands while standing next to a man. I don't want a man to overhear me explain to my three year old what a sanitary towel is.
4. Women in states of vulnerability are not safe in shared sex spaces. Your cubicles are not even floor-to-ceiling; you are making it easier for predatory males to intimidate, harass and attack women and girls.
5. Women have fought long and hard for single-sex provision so that they have equal access to public life. Both the WHO and UNICEF emphasise the importance of single-sex toilets in protecting girls in developing countries from rape, and allowing them to participate in public life. Without adequate toilet provision, women and girls in this country too would have their safety and dignity compromised whenever they leave the house. I would be very interested to know what Equality Impact and Risk Assessments were carried out before this change was implemented.
6. It is just not acceptable that men now have access to 2.5 of 4 toilet facilities, while women - who I presume make up at least 50% of your clientele (I would guess more based on today's audience) - only have access to 1.5 of them. I anticipate an explanation that this change was made to make better provision for transgender people, and while this may be a laudable aim, I invite you to consider why it was deemed appropriate to remove a significant proportion of your female customers' toilet provision. This sends a very clear message that you value your female customers less than any other demographic, and for this reason I will not be visiting the Theatre Royal in the foreseeable future."

Pigsknickers I went in there for a show this summer with my 9 yr old daughter. I took her to the downstairs womens toilet you mentioned but the queue was too long - she was desperate- and ended up outside a 'gender neutral' one floor up. I opened the door to two middle aged men at urinals.

I complained to them in an email and got the same response as you about inclusion.

It made me so mad to think that they were happy to put my 9yr old daughter in that position in order to accommodate male adults.

Thank you for not letting this drop.

I'm with you.

@Thelnebriati, do they legally need to have fully self-contained toilets & handbasins if they also have female toilets on another floor?

Excellent letter OP.

God, I won't be rushing to go there now. We went to another Event not far from York and husband said that women were just openly walking into the men's toilets and using their cubicles as fed up with waiting in the long queue

@Signifyingnothing

If you have already written to them and received a response, could you reply to them using the info in the thread?

What happen to you with your 9 yr old is awful and the fob off with the ‘inclusive’ bullshit is not legal/acceptable. Everyone should be included - your little girl is just as important as everyone else. As a minor - I would argue more so.

Every initial email and rebuttal to fob offs count.. particularly if they have received other complaints.

Right, the gloves are off. My mum's going in.
Her friend went this summer and was really upset by it. Queer activists won't care, but forcing older women to climb stairs just because they took away their single sex spaces is not on.

I'm like YOU HAVE TO COMPLAIN!!!

Yay Katvon

The only chance we've got against this tide of taking away women's toilet provision is for large numbers of women to complain loudly.

Excellent letter @pigsknickers

Thank you for doing this OP.

Am looking forward to future developments.

What the hell has happened in our society that exposing a nine year old little girl to blokes with their penises out at urinals is being framed as 'inclusion' when a year ago it would have been basic common sense unthinkable?

I defy York theatre or anyone else to show me policy or guidance or definitions of 'inclusion' that mean 'hurl safeguarding, privacy and dignity out of the window'.

One of the things I am most angry with the TRA politicial lobby is their appropriation of the word and concept of 'inclusion' and having bent it so badly out of shape that it will soon become a disliked word and concept that people will hear and immediately switch off to, as it's been twisted to mean anything but what it originally meant. It was about equality of opportunity for all; adding to, not taking away from others; with reasonable adjustments and fair impact assessment. It was about spaces that worked for everybody. If it left a group harmed, angry, resentful, it wasn't bloody inclusion!

So thanks a bunch from the disabled population. Selfish appropriation harms others.

Michelle "What the hell has happened in our society that exposing a nine year old little girl to blokes with their penises out at urinals is being framed as 'inclusion' when a year ago it would have been basic common sense unthinkable?"

IKR?!

In terms of choices of types of bathroom, I think a previous poster on another thread explained that it's often the ground floor that's converted to unisex, I think it's really unfair to elderly and disabled people.

I'll probably get flamed for this but this isn't something that started in the UK is it. My late father complained, about 10 years ago now, on holiday in various places, about urinals being in loos where women and children were pleasant. He made the comment to museum staff and station staff and was treated as a prude, essentially.

Autumnrose I've used toilets and changing rooms like the ones you describe on the continent, going back years, decades probably - and they always made me feel pretty uncomfortable. I've definitely been made to feel like a prude many times for being squeamish about sharing toilets etc with men, while being aware that for most women there it didn't seem to be a big deal (although I'm sure it always had caused problems there too).

But - if that's long been the cultural/societal norm in other countries, then addressing that is a very different fight to the one we're currently being dragged into here. We're being gaslit into accepting that societal norms are changing here, and that it's not considered inappropriate, uncomfortable, unsafe etc for females and males to share thes facilities, when we know that to be completely untrue. It's this lie that everyone is fine with it that makes me so angry, as much as the fact of it, iyswim.

KnucklesMcGinty
There are only 2 types of toilet in the standards; single sex and self contained.
Mixed sex toilets with shared sinks are not up to standard, so they are the ones that should be on the top floor.

Maybe part of the answer is that - for those of us who can do this and not feel too uncomfortable - women should start using those RIDICULOUS “Gender neutral with urinals” toilets wherever these are sign posted.

We have protested this hurly burly handing over of women’s loos to “Gender neutral with cubicles“ and complained that the “gender neutral with urinals” are not fit for women to use.

But let’s use them. Let’s subject men to the potential discomfort and/or embarrassment that we women are being subjected to.

If MEN start complaining you can bet that something will be done.

Exactly who are they ‘including’ here? Have they said?

Thanks @TheInebriati. Could the venue argue that because they have single sex toilets upstairs, they are complying with the law?
Not that I ever go to the theatre or anywhere near York, but I'd like to have all the info in case I encounter this elsewhere.

Lord no, tellingly, they haven't. Unless they were trying to imply it's all for the dads with young children.

I wonder if they have advised the parents of children attending the Youth Theatre of these changes. My DD aged 10 participated in both the Shakespeare Festival with her school and did a term as part of the Youth Theatre last year, some of which was held within the theatre (some in the De Grey rooms). I wouldn't have wanted her to use the unisex toilets at any time, let alone unaccompanied. I know her primary are doing the Shakespeare Festival again this year, so will ask what provision they are making for the girls during time spent at the theatre.

On a linked topic, I parked my car recently in a car park which is part of a shopping mall. The toilets there are nice, new and generally very clean.
The men's toilets were partly closed off and the sign for the ladies had been replaced with one showing it was for men and women, with a further sign inside directly men to use one particular corridor.
I messaged the building management soon after and asked if this was a permanent or temporary arrangement. They replied it was temporary as there was a problem with the men's. I replied and thanked them and commented that I would prefer the facilities to remain single sex in future as the current arrangement was confusing as well as unwelcome.
Later that day, going back to my car, I passed the toilet area again. It was chaos. They're deployed several staff to direct people, and both men and women were coming out muttering and looking annoyed.
It was a good illustration of how little either sex liked sharing.

KnucklesMcGinty
Could the venue argue that because they have single sex toilets upstairs, they are complying with the law?

They could try, I guess it would depend on how easy it is to access them.

Pigs "But - if that's long been the cultural/societal norm in other countries, then addressing that is a very different fight to the one we're currently being dragged into here"

but is it? I don't know how or why it started in other countries. Are we fighting against more than TRAs here? Because that's not going to help. Most threads on here, someone turns up with "they do it in xyz country and no one complains". So it's also the case that they have extra ammunition in this horribly global world.

it's like the awful pop up urinals in London. When I heard they were being introduced, I assumed an enclosed pod with a door was coming.

then I realised it was an open air thing for a guy to pee into - and apparently they have them in France dad said - and a few posters here named some other countries.

Inebriati yes, everywhere I've encountered this has a single sex loo somewhere in the building and I think that's how they get away with it. It would be nice if everyone refused to use the unisex ones.

When I was at the Wellcome, the majority of people looked thoroughly annoyed - and quite confused.

Has anyone been to the Old Vic lately - how's that working out?

OP, if you feel I am hijacking your thread - please do say - I started a list of toilets but the thread hasn't got much on it.

I keep hearing its the cultural norm in 'other countries' but no one can name them.

Bearing in mind that unisex toilets with urinals will almost certainly ensure females inadvertantly seeing men's genitalia, then how come the laws on "indecent exposure" do not seem to apply?

www.localsolicitors.com/criminal-guides/indecent-exposure-laws-and-offences

Autumn as far as I know it's always been fairly common for there to sometimes be shared facilities in eg France, at least since my childhood. I'm not saying it's not problematic, just that it's a very different beast.
It's a common stereotype that we Brits are prudes, but I'm ok with that because that's our norm. As a different example, many German people are ok with levels of public nudity that make me very uncomfortable. The nudity isn't necessarily a problem in a society where it's normal; nor is the discomfort a problem in a society where it isn't. I'm not sure what my point is exactly. Just that there's an added dimension of forced societal change and gaslighting, which I don't believe is present in countries on the continent where shared facilities are already fairly commonplace