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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are you in Devon, Bristol, North Somerset or South Gloucestershire? Tell NHS your view on trans guidelines NOW

249 replies

anotherFOIrequester · 02/01/2020 11:41

Happy New Year!

Starting a new thread with the aim of putting all the information in one place as I now have a clearer picture.

Old thread here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3755711-Help-FOI-request-trans-guidance-in-NHS-in-South-West?pg=1

The NHS CCG for Bristol, North Somerset and South Gloucestershire are adopting 'best practice' guidance for trans patients that you can read here:

bnssgccg-media.ams3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/attachments/govbody_5Nov19_item6.4.pdf

There is no consideration of women or anyone else with protected characteristics, eg 'Providing education to other service users in a ward to prevent ignorant or transphobic comments is, if successful, a better solution than having to protect or isolate the trans service user'.
There has been no equality impact assessment, no risk assessment and no consultation with patients who don't identify as transgender.

The guidance is produced by Bristol charity SARI (Stand Against Racism and Inequality) but the meeting minutes below reveal that the lead writer is Cheryl Morgan, director of the Diversity Trust:

bnssgccg-media.ams3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/attachments/govbody_3Dec19_item3.pdf

Morgan is a transwoman who attended a menopause event and claims the ability to breastfeed:

medium.com/@elsaegret/abusive-misogynist-activist-writes-nhs-policy-in-bristol-21dd02cc4c9c

Morgan has also used abusive language to women for many years:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-used-violent-transgender-activist-for-equality-training-x0mktgclw

SARI and the Diversity Trust have form:

medium.com/@elsaegret/stitch-up-bristol-fashion-f1eb298e28da

The guidance also features the logos of North Bristol NHS Trust and Devon Partnership NHS Trust. I have FOIs pending with both of them to establish what's happening there.

In response to women contacting the BNSSG CCG, they are now conducting an EIA, for what that's worth.

The good thing is we are disrupting the usual 'under-the-radar' proceedings before this is signed off - this is the time to contact them if you're in those areas, or if you're in Devon, or if you live elsewhere but use those NHS services.

Bristol/South Glos/North Som: [email protected]

North Bristol NHS Trust: [email protected]

Devon Partnership NHS Trust: [email protected]

OP posts:
gardenbird48 · 09/12/2020 12:29

thanks Watermonster - I didn't realise that it covered other areas.

I have now submitted my response by email and on the survey. Fingers crossed!

anotherFOIrequester · 15/12/2020 11:48

DEVON

Devon women! I received a response to my FOI about the review due on their policy which currently allows male rapists on female wards: www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/707779/response/1691857/attach/2/Freedom%20of%20Information%20Response%2020%2021%20182.pdf

"The Trust is currently undertaking biennial review of the Supporting transgender, non-binary and intersex patients’ policy in line with policy requirements. The ratified policy will be published in spring 2021, following thorough review and consultation with a range of key stakeholders. As the policy review is currently in early stages of scoping, the Trust is not currently able to provide details of the review process undertaken and outcomes as these have not yet been reached.This information will be available once the process has completed, in spring 2021."

I don't live in Devon but became aware of this terrible policy because Devon Partnership Trust also approved the toolkit commissioned by my local CCG (Bristol/North Somerset/South Glos).

Please ACT NOW to get involved in this. The FOI response raises lots of questions (who are the stakeholders?), but I think the first thing to do is INSIST the trust carries out an EIA, as BNSSG CCG have now done, setting a precedent.

OP posts:
gardenbird48 · 15/12/2020 14:13

thank you AnotherFOI - I had assumed that the Devon and Cornwall Trusts would be following Bristol but I guess that may not be the case. I am just reading through this one - so far, check out this definition of Sex AND they talk about Sex at birth as distinct to gender. omg..... Do you happen to have any idea who we would contact re. feedback on this policy? I will email my local contact again but she ignored my last two emails....

4.11. Sex – Determined by a person’s physical traits, hormone levels, chromosomes, genitals, internal sex organs, and secondary sex characteristics.

gardenbird48 · 15/12/2020 14:32

it's not good, and they really haven't thought it through. Hospital staff may not discuss the transgender status of the patient on pain of prosecution and a fine unless absolutely necessary on medical grounds. The transgender patient will be accommodated on the ward of their choice but in the event that the patient has not disclosed their transgender status to family, it is also impossible for hospital staff to explain to family member why DH is on a female ward. Can we see any problems with this logic?

They allow transgender patients to register with only their 'new' sex so their birth sex and any previous medical history are obscured from clinicians.

I am yet to check the 'Zero Tolerance' policy that is invoked if anyone objects to a male-bodied person on the female ward but I can guess where it will be heading and check out below. They say a few things about assessing and acknowledging the issues for patients in single sex wards but bearing in mind that discussing any 'strong evidence' will probably fall foul of the Zero Tolerance policy it's not looking good .....

12.8. While it is important to include views of carers or relatives where ever possible, these views may not be in line with the views and preferences of the transgender person being admitted. In this instance, the preferences of the transgender person should be given priority, unless there is strong evidence against this. Consent to share information with carers or relatives must always be sought, as it is with all people admitted to inpatient wards.

on the plus side, there is a Diversity Officer email on page 10 or 11 so there may be emails. I suggest anyone in Devon or Cornwall does the same.

gardenbird48 · 15/12/2020 14:34

14.5. Where a transgender woman is admitted and has a history of sex offending, decisions regarding risk should include consideration of whether they are being prescribed anti-libidinal medication that would be expected to reduce sexual risk.

bloody hell!!!! is that even legal???

gardenbird48 · 15/12/2020 14:42

and they have listed Gender not Sex in the pc list of the EA 2010 and misrepresent the situations in which the single sex exemptions of the EA 2010 can be invoked ie. IN HOSPITAL WARDS!!

I wonder if these people can actually read - hospital wards are explicitly included in the law - we don't have to wait until there is a problem with a specific patient before deciding that they are too risky to put on a female ward or give them bloody anti-libidinal drugs!!!! fgs!! Sorry I am absolutely furious now.

Alethiometrical · 15/12/2020 16:46

Cross-threading a bit, but I thought Professor Rosa Freedman's concluding statement in her evidence to the Women & Equalities House of Commons Select Committee hearing was really helpful in the legal matters of single-sex wards.

When asked whether she believed transwomen were women,** she answered:

Peter Gibson (Tory MP)
[...] Could you each confirm for me your view as to whether a trans woman is a woman and whether a trans man is a man, please?

Professor Freedman
I will go down the law route because that is my expertise, and I think you would rather have my expertise than my personal opinion. In law, it says that a man is someone who is born male with biology in terms of chromosomes, gonads and genitalia, and a woman is someone who is born female with the same biological factors. Now, there is the legal fiction where a trans woman or a trans man may gain a gender recognition certificate that changes their legal sex but does not change their actual sex. Currently, in law, a trans woman is a trans woman unless she holds a GRC, in which case she is male, she is a trans woman, but, legally, she would be recognised as a woman for many but not all purposes.

That sounds complicated because the law is currently in a bit of a mess and that is why we need to change and streamline it. My opinion, therefore, changes depending on whether someone holds a GRC, but I stick in line with what the law currently says, which is that your sex is determined by biology.

Note Prof. Freedman says: 'many but not all purposes'

Professor Alice Sullivan's answer is also useful for the matter of single-sex wards

Professor Sullivan
I have been very clear. There is a distinction between sex and gender identity. Both of them are quite properly protected characteristics and we need to see them as distinct. The slogan “trans women are women” has been really unhelpful. Grown-up, mature adults do not talk in slogans. We need to think about the fact that there might be contexts where we want to treat trans women as though they were women and trans men as though they were men. In other contexts, that may not be appropriate. For example, if we think about sporting categories, changing rooms or data collection, all sorts of different issues may come up and we need to have a sensible conversation about those different contexts.

** a weaselly question attempting to trap the three feminist witnesses.

Discussion of this evidence is here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4102035-Women-Equalities-Commitee-live-today-at-2-30

bishopgiggles · 15/12/2020 19:43

@anotherFOIrequester

*DEVON*

Devon women! I received a response to my FOI about the review due on their policy which currently allows male rapists on female wards: www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/707779/response/1691857/attach/2/Freedom%20of%20Information%20Response%2020%2021%20182.pdf

"The Trust is currently undertaking biennial review of the Supporting transgender, non-binary and intersex patients’ policy in line with policy requirements. The ratified policy will be published in spring 2021, following thorough review and consultation with a range of key stakeholders. As the policy review is currently in early stages of scoping, the Trust is not currently able to provide details of the review process undertaken and outcomes as these have not yet been reached.This information will be available once the process has completed, in spring 2021."

I don't live in Devon but became aware of this terrible policy because Devon Partnership Trust also approved the toolkit commissioned by my local CCG (Bristol/North Somerset/South Glos).

Please ACT NOW to get involved in this. The FOI response raises lots of questions (who are the stakeholders?), but I think the first thing to do is INSIST the trust carries out an EIA, as BNSSG CCG have now done, setting a precedent.

Just reading this policy and it's appallingly worded and wrong in places. E.g. under 'hate crime': "6.6.2. Hate becomes a crime if the victim or another person believes an incident to be motivated by a hatred of someone due the victim having actual or perceived characteristics. It does not matter if the victim or other person does not belong to the group with those attributes."

This is nonsense. "Hate" doesn't "become a crime". A crime becomes a hate crime for those reasons but an 'incident' is something that is non-criminal. They are truly confused about hate incidents (anything happening at all that someone somewhere decides is due to 'attributes' that the person may or may not have and may not even have been referenced in the 'incident') and hate crimes which are actual crimes to begin with.

I'd be embarrassed to have written something so easily googled.

anotherFOIrequester · 21/12/2020 12:50

DEVON

OK the people to contact about this are Laura Hobbs, Executive Director Lead for Equality, Diversity and Inclusion and Gerry Marshall, Trust Non-Executive Lead for Equality, Diversity and Inclusion.

They need to withdraw this policy, start again, consult women and do a proper EIA.

[email protected]
[email protected]

OP posts:
gardenbird48 · 21/12/2020 12:54

that's very helpful thanks OP - do you have any thoughts on the angle that might be best to take in the letter - is it as a concerned service user or is there anything that I can add to give it some weight as I suspect they will just ignore me.

anotherFOIrequester · 21/12/2020 12:57

Judging by their most recent report, they are pretty captured.

www.dpt.nhs.uk/resources/corporate-information/equality-diversity-and-inclusion/equality-diversity-and-inclusion-annual-reports-1/edi-annual-report-201920

''we recognise that monitoring the number of Trans people is highly sensitive and there is a risk that if numbers are disaggregated from male / female recorded data, this could jeopardise people’s privacy. The Gender Identity Research and Education Society (GIRES) suggest that most gender nonconforming people do not wish to be identifiable, even in a confidential way.''

So sex data from Devon Partnership NHS Trust is worthless then.

They get the PCs right but check out the graphics - 'sex' is represented by the trans symbol and 'gender reassignment' by the male and female symbols...OK then... Xmas Shock

OP posts:
anotherFOIrequester · 21/12/2020 13:03

The foreword is big on 'bring your whole self to work'...why?? I don't bring my whole self to work, no-one does! It's work!

garden I don't know... They should want to hear from women service users but I suspect other service users are more likely to be heard...
We need to get this out there to women in Devon who don't know about it.

OP posts:
anotherFOIrequester · 21/12/2020 13:10

page 26: ''The service was part of a local working group developing a Trans Toolkit for practitioners whichhas now been signed-off by the local CCG Governance Board and is due for publication in early2020. This document supports the awareness and understanding of the clinical needs of Transservice users for practitioners and will be available across the organisation.. ''

They might want to update this one!

You could point out that since the report's publication this has been rejected in Bristol/NS/SG by women and clinicians.

OP posts:
anotherFOIrequester · 21/12/2020 13:13

''Transgender Policy development We have developed two policies to support Transgender people who are using our services and Transgender staff. We continue to work with people from the Trans community in order to enhance policies and practices. We also review our clinical and workforce information systems to ensure the records for Transgender people are managed in compliance with the law and in accordance with their personal preferences. Our work has been shared across the Devon community as an example of good practice.''

I wonder where the staff trans policy can be found??

OP posts:
anotherFOIrequester · 21/12/2020 13:17

FFS They have no idea what they're talking about:

''Gender reassignment refers to individuals who either have undergone, intend to undergo or are currently undergoing gender reassignment (medical and surgical treatment to alter the body)''

''Intersex is a term referring to people born with a combination of male and female biological characteristics, such as chromosomes or genitals, that can make doctors unable to assign their sex as distinctly male or female.''

OP posts:
anotherFOIrequester · 29/12/2020 13:04

BRISTOL/N SOM/S GLOS

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6cf9add4-4891-11eb-9dbc-44d114c9d92d?shareToken=6281a2d28333a5b52bf5586ef503527d

Glasgow and Clyde NHS trans guidance withdrawn.

Good news here because the BNNSSG CCG refer to the challenge to the Glasgow guidance in the Equality Impact Assessment:

NHS Greater Glasgow & Clyde Trust produced a transgender toolkit to support its staff, whichwas also challenged. This toolkit is currently under review following consultation with the Equality Human Rights Commission (EHRC).A statement will be issued to the CCG following the conclusion of their review and due process. A paragraph will be added to this EIA at a later date when an update is available.

OP posts:
anotherFOIrequester · 13/01/2021 13:28

In case you don't feel you have been gaslit enough - here is the submission from the Diversity Trust to the GRA enquiry. DT is the org run by Cheryl Morgan who wrote the Bristol NHS guidance.

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/16958/pdf/

I just can't bear this WE TRAINED THE WOMEN-ONLY GROUPS THEY ARE VERY HAPPY rictus grin assurance set next to the submissions from women who are genuinely begging and pleading not to be subjected to this.

''The Diversity Trust is a Community Interest Company working to achieve a fairer and safer society.We provide trans awareness training to a wide variety of clients across all sectors, includingorganisations that provide women-only services. We work closely with trans communities in theSouth and West of England, including running LGBT+ youth and adult support groups. Our work is grounded in the principles of the Equality Act.''

''There has been a lot of discussion, particularly in the media, of “sex-based rights”. The assumption appears to be that everyone has an innate and unchangeable “biological sex”, that this is the basis of the Protected Characteristic of Sex, and that rights of people with a “biological sex” of female automatically take priority over those of people with the Protected Characteristic of Gender Reassignment''

Perhaps the following suggests bridges are burning with the NHS?
''We note that the 2016 Transgender Equality Report was particularly critical of the NHS as failing in its duty of care towards trans people. We have done a considerable amount of training for NHS staff in the intervening years, and are happy to report that the vast majority of NHS employees we have met are very supportive of trans people and keen to help as best they can. Efforts at trans inclusion often meet resistance at senior level, with NHS managers impeded by changes of policy, and by fear of negative media attention should any trans-supportive policies be made public.''

God forbid the public get to read policies on how they are treated in medical settings. God forbid senior management actually listen to women. Don't forget this org got PAID to write the dodgy NHS guidance...not exactly the way to secure future gigs. Oh wait it is in this game, where the institutions always just need that bit more training...

A detail jumped out that really illustrates how these orgs work.
In the official submission to govt enquiry they write:
''A key part of the gender transition process is the so-called “Real Life Test”. Trans people under thevcare of a gender clinic are not allowed to proceed to surgery, or to change their legal gender, until they have shown that they can live successfully in their acquired gender for a set period of time. To undertake this test, they must have ID that matches their acquired gender. Both passports and driving licences, if they exist, must therefore be changed at the start of the transition process. This is done routinely, and typically only requires a simple letter from a doctor.''

So in black and white they show that they are fully aware that you can a) apply for GRC b) get surgery c) both by just changing the sex marker on your passport and driving licence. Crucially, no requirement to be in women-only spaces.

But on Twitter, the org's driector Cheryl Morgan says you have to use women-only spaces to pass the 'real-life test'. (note underlying assumption of MtF - never mind the transmen!)

archive.is/dBrkv

''There are all sorts of discussions to be had around that requirement, but it exists, and that means that trans women on the standard medical pathway must show they can access women-only spaces prior to being allowed surgery.''

So on social media and in their training they can spread the idea that 'trans people will be denied treatment' if males can't use the ladies, but if anyone calls them on it they can point to their govt submission and say 'oh no, we would never say that'.

OP posts:
Terranean · 13/01/2021 14:13

Is there any group I could join that it is working towards engaging on restablishing sex as a protected characteristic on the literature provided by Institutions in Devon? I had a very frustrating exchange with my council about their Equality Act listed characteristics (sex wasn't't there). GIRES did produce their lastest (2017) Equality policy on the lines described here.

I would very much like to work along others if you can point me in the right direction. I know Ann Sinnott is pushing for the judicial review but anything local Devon/SW? Some women's groups I belong to are very accepting of ALL women (cis and trans) what creates a bit of tension when I am in conversation with them. Lately, someone said they were not happy with youngsters being called trans and another that they have not thought about the possibility of being represented by a tw, which made them less confortable. Talking is good, but I have no energy to be walking on eggshells all the time, so will prefer to work with likeminded women. Any suggestions?

bishopgiggles · 13/01/2021 14:20

The assumption appears to be that everyone has an innate and unchangeable “biological sex”, that this is the basis of the Protected Characteristic of Sex, and that rights of people with a “biological sex” of female automatically take priority over those of people with the Protected Characteristic of Gender Reassignment'

bloody hell. This is laughable.
For a start, these are separate assumptions - people 'assuming' there is an unchangeable biological sex - including many trans people - wouldn't necessarily have any opinion over the order of priorities (to do what?) of the protected characteristics.
This is supposed to be evidence? Where's the evidence for their evidence?

Don't get me started on the paragraphs following this one too.

"The UK has, since at least the 1930s, accepted that the sex assigned at birth is not always correct [CITATION VERY MUCH NEEDED], and can be changed on medical advice. We do not test a baby’s chromosomes at birth, and even if we did this is not always a clear indication of the sex of the individual. Intersex people exist, and while their numbers are small, they are similar in proportion of the population to the numbers of trans people.

The sex recorded on a birth certificate is therefore a legal sex, not a biological sex. This can be changed, as the GRA makes clear. Appeals to “biological sex” and dictionary definitions of “woman” cannot challenge this.

Where the Equality Act makes reference to Sex as a Protected Characteristic, it should therefore be referring to legal sex, and not to any other proposed definition of what sex a person is."

I've never anything so contorted!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/01/2021 14:23

Cheryl Morgan is a key member of the Women's Equality Party, I think?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/01/2021 14:26

The Big Lie - how the WEP was always about gender rather than sex www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4058470-the-big-lie-how-the-wep-was-always-about-gender-rather-than-sex

gardenbird48 · 13/01/2021 14:50

Is there any group I could join that it is working towards engaging on restablishing sex as a protected characteristic on the literature provided by Institutions in Devon?

I would also like to find a group in Devon, if anyone knows of one? Maybe we need to start our own??

I thought I recognised the name of Cheryl M. - according to Cheryl’s blog Cheryl has fingers in many pies. Including giving a talk on menopause to a women’s group while being in possession of the type of body that will never be troubled by menopause. Cheryl has some rather nasty things to say about women in Cheryl’s blog and has clearly had quite an impact on the policy making for the whole of the South West.

Anyway I’m just off to give a talk about diabetes to a diabetic group despite not suffering from it myself, having no medical background and the closest I have been to diabetes is having chocolate overload after going at the Quality Street to enthusiastically. Wish me luck :-))

(I’m joking about the diabetes btw. Unlike some I don’t insert myself into groups to give talks on topics in which I have absolutely no experience).

Apollo440 · 13/01/2021 14:51

The sex recorded on a birth certificate is therefore a legal sex, not a biological sex. This can be changed, as the GRA makes clear. Appeals to “biological sex” and dictionary definitions of “woman” cannot challenge this.^

Jesus, these fuckers live in a parallel universe.

anotherFOIrequester · 13/01/2021 14:57

garden and Terranean - Let a Woman Speak are Plymouth based I think. Wasn't sure if they were currently active but they've put up a great video about the current GRA enquiry (with bonus cute dog!) so they def are.

www.letawomanspeak.org/contact

OP posts:
anotherFOIrequester · 13/01/2021 15:03

But no-one is saying biological sex doesn't exist remember? Angry

So according to the Diversity Trust, all the rank-and-file NHS staff are totally up for men on women's wards and it's only the eeevil senior mgmt holding the door to this paradise of equality closed.

BOLLOCKS. My sister works in the NHS in a patient-facing role and is dreading having to deal with this. Met a nurse at the London WPUK conf who had the problem dumped on her - very unhappy and thinks whole thing is a nightmare.

OP posts:
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