"Mumsnet statement on moderation with regard to..."

[RaveOnThisCrazyFeeling]

@MNHQ, I am wondering if the statement sticky at the top of this section needs a new, more accurate, less misleading title.

A large part of the difficulty that women encounter in discussing these issues comes from the framing of the issue as being about 'trans rights'. This implies that feminists are arguing against the equal rights of trans people, which of course isn't the case at all. It also disregards the fact that women and their rights have any stake in the issues being discussed - it makes it all about trans people having rights, or not having rights, and to the casual, uninformed observer that reinforces the TRA narrative that women are a privileged class denying the rights of oppressed transwomen.

In fact, women are the historically and systemically disadvantaged sex class, and so ha e a very large stake in legal and social understanding of sex and gender.

Might you give some consideration to changing the thread name (and OP as appropriate) to "...discussion of sex and gender" rather than "discussion of trans rights"?

So presumably we can agree that male pattern violence is the threat to both groups

See, here though is where you're (general your) are doing the exact same thing as what you're doing when you say all women are vulnerable and oppressed.
Saying that trans women, just by the fact that they're biologically male, need to stay away as they're all a threat. (NO that's not transphobic before some smart arse tells me my transphobia's showing, you can't change biology)
It's lumping people all together.
If you're a trans woman it doesn't automatically mean "threat."

How is telling someone to fuck off not disrespectful

Telling someone to fuck off is usually a personal attack and is taken down from what I've seen.

I would like to propose that when the rules are changed (unofficially, they don't generally seem to be updated to reflect changes) and a new thing is deemed uncivil that wasn't before strikes not be issued - if you're going to impose consequences then the least you could do is actually let people know that a Consequence Worthy Offense has been added to the list. Right now the rules function as the secular equivalent of the gospel of Nuggan, with new bits being added all the time.

And then people get punished again for attempting to explain what has changed as told to them by the mods, which does not come across well at all.

it still stands though that we don't all feel like an oppressed, vulnerable minority.Some do, and that's fair enough.Some don't, and they're entitled to their opinions too

You see my problem with your take on things is that you base everything on how an individual 'feels'. You don't seem to recognise or accept that there are any structural issues when it comes to the treatment and experience of different groups of people.

Oppression, in my mind, means: double standards, in which one group is treated far more un/favourably than another; in which one group is not taken as seriously, or has having as much value according to the dominant narrative or system of reward or judgement, for example.

Or when one group suffers or is downgraded because of their 'unique' or particular qualities or characteristics; when the language/mother tongue reflects positions of power in which the oppressed group is determined to be 'secondary' or an after-thought; in which matters of law are often skewed so as to defend the established groups and more powerful groups....When the work or labour of a particular group is not valued as much as that of the dominant groups, and so on.....when the lives of one group is seeing as being more expendable than others......when there is no bodily autonomy.......

I don't think any of us could possibly dispute that women, as a group, are oppressed throughout the world, using the above criteria - could we?

You seem to see everything in terms of how an individual 'feels'. That is a very relativist position. Are you also suggesting, therefore, that it is a necessary condition of 'being trans' or 'being a person of colour' to feel oppressed or vulnerable? If so, why?

See, here though is where you're (general your) are doing the exact same thing as what you're doing when you say all women are vulnerable and oppressed.

Nobody is saying all women are vulnerable and oppressed!!!!

Women belong to a group, women. By virtue of their sex they are oppressed and vulnerable. So therefore women are opressed and vulnerable, even though every single woman may not have experienced oppression, a lot have, whether through catcalling, dv, gender pay gap (well done Samira), limited opportunities, sexual assaults, etc.

Children as a group, vulnerable.

Black, as a group oppressed although not all have experienced oppression.

This group here though is for tue women group, who want to champion womens rights and safeguarding, inclusing children.

Thats been very obvious all along, ever since I started reading here.

Minority doesn't really feature. Its for women, about women, with women (and others that want to champion women's rights and raise threats to them, or which there are many)

Why is it acceptable for a poster/posters to come and goad on a feminism board by denying the basic tenets of feminism ?

It never ends, does it ?

Mumsnet throw a tiny crumb our way (which I appreciate - it made a big difference to me to log on and see the changed sticky title - I don't need to be reminded who's top dog round here every single time - thanks Mumsnet ) and anti-femninst posters have to dive right in and keep goading.

NOWHERE have I said I don't agree with offering solidarity to women who fall into the category, stop making shit up

The reason people keep posing you such questions is because you have yet to lay out, in detail, the way you view things - unlike quite a number of us, who have bent over backwards to do so with you - in the hope of eliciting a response which is considered, thoughtful and logical. Perhaps you wouldn't feel so hounded if you would, for once, present us with your thesis. Then there would be some substance to discuss & debate.

As it is you have a tendency to make lots of unsupported statements - without sufficient example to qualify them; you often issue judgments such as 'bigoted', 'racist' and 'transphobic' - as if they alone are meant to do all of your thinking for you - and as if we are meant to feel chastened for unspeakable crime.

Right. So "trans" must be used in conjunction with "person" or "people" or you get a mod-imposed spanking?

Isn’t it obligatory on Twitter to use “folks”?

Nobody is saying all women are vulnerable and oppressed!!!!

Kind of implies it though
Look, right under your post.......

By virtue of their sex they are oppressed and vulnerable. So therefore women are opressed and vulnerable

Saying that trans women, just by the fact that they're biologically male, need to stay away as they're all a threat

Some might well be.....and many have shown themselves to be; but it is not just about 'threat'.....it is about the comfort and dignity of one's sex -which is registered instinctively......

Also because it is hugely offensive for a man to declare himself female.......as if being a woman, and being female is nothing more than an inner feeling or a set of clothes and mannerisms. How frigging offensive can you get.

Can I identify legitimately as 'black' because I 'feel' black; like elements of some black cultures; have always loved reggae; and like to sport an afro or dreads? Really? Can I enter into protected categories or competitions, or apply for scholarships meant for people of African heritage; can I take up a seat or position that was meant to be reserved for an African American - just because I identify as black - even though I'm white?

Would you consider any of the above valid? If not, why not?

Willis clearly can't answer my questions with any congruence, which is why Willis is avoiding them. Simple negations and denials and saying " bullshit" just doesn't cut it.

Why is it acceptable for a poster/posters to come and goad on a feminism board

See, this is what I mean - why the fuck is it automatically "goading" to say you disagree with something?!
All I originally said was that I didn't agree with chicken's wording and why ffs, then you get all this shit lol

you often issue judgments such as 'bigoted', 'racist

Not ONCE have I issued or indeed used the words bigoted or racist, again stop making shit up to make it sit better with your view.

See, this is what I mean - why the fuck is it automatically "goading" to say you disagree with something

Because that is all you ever do. You don't outline, ever, the pattern of your thinking, philosophy or view. All you ever say is you don't "agree". It is like all you ever want to be is the fly in the ointment.

You do realise there are many serious, capable, intelligent people here...people who have been involved in progressive politics of one sort or another for many decades in many instances. And women who know what the struggle for women's liberation and value looks like.....women who understand that what makes us female is our body ( our sexed body) and our biology; our capacity for childbirth...for motherhood; not our friggin' feelings...... Nobody 'identifies' as a woman. They simply are.

stop making shit up to make it sit better with your view.

Yeah, it's really annoying when that happens.

See, this is what I mean - why the fuck is it automatically "goading" to say you disagree with something?!

Goading is just one of those words that they chuck around whenever someone disagrees with them. The forum rules make it clear that different views should be expected here.

Because you didn't say why. You blustered for about the fact that you had misrepresented what she suggested, and then cobbled together some incoherent blether about not every single woman being oppressed, while completely missing that by your own 'logic' not every single trans person is oppressed, so if we can't say we stand in solidarity with the one group this section is here to talk about and campaign for, what is the point of guidelines that specify standing in solidarity with any group at all.

I get that you believe it, I get that we have reached the outer limits of your comprehension. And everyone reading this gets that too. It's not the different opinion. It's the woeful lack of coherent thought.
I'm perfectly prepared to accept that you just don't understand what us being discussed. But others may well read you as being deliberately obtuse, and therefore goady. Funny old world.

Goodnight all.

Not ONCE have I issued or indeed used the words bigoted or racist, again stop making shit up to make it sit better with your view

There you go again.......make some effort.......

The forum rules make it clear that different views should be expected here

Stop telling us you have them...and start outlining them - for the purposes of debate and discussion. That is what the board is for. Otherwise you are simply a troll.

while completely missing that by your own 'logic' not every single trans person is oppressed

It's a bit too late on a Friday evening to be bringing logic into this, isn't it?!

Otherwise you are simply a troll.

Another word automatically thrown at anyone with a different viewpoint.

" Bullshit" & "fuck" is about all we're ever going to get here......there's nothing else in the tank.

Btw ladies, before I turn in, a reminder that it's the weekend, and odd things tend to happen round these parts. Stay undeleted, beloved wims xx