"Mumsnet statement on moderation with regard to..."

[RaveOnThisCrazyFeeling]

@MNHQ, I am wondering if the statement sticky at the top of this section needs a new, more accurate, less misleading title.

A large part of the difficulty that women encounter in discussing these issues comes from the framing of the issue as being about 'trans rights'. This implies that feminists are arguing against the equal rights of trans people, which of course isn't the case at all. It also disregards the fact that women and their rights have any stake in the issues being discussed - it makes it all about trans people having rights, or not having rights, and to the casual, uninformed observer that reinforces the TRA narrative that women are a privileged class denying the rights of oppressed transwomen.

In fact, women are the historically and systemically disadvantaged sex class, and so ha e a very large stake in legal and social understanding of sex and gender.

Might you give some consideration to changing the thread name (and OP as appropriate) to "...discussion of sex and gender" rather than "discussion of trans rights"?

the ridiculing of trans people who have nothing to do with this debate, it just goes on and on

If you think discussion and detailed analysis is abuse, then I suggest you take some lessons in critical thinking. If you are not able to analyse a body of information then you cannot progress theory or thought.

I don't mean to be overly negative but I think people are kidding themselves if they think advertisers etc care about nuances of content, or actual points being made, rather than "will a certain number of people loudly say this is -phobic?"

And no it hasn't passed me by that women have been calling stuff out for being misogynistic for time immemorial but apparently that's fine. Keep making noise. Who knows, cancel culture might catch up one day.

I'd like to suggest, just for the sake of any future uncertainty around the existence of this board, that people make links and forge connections with others as a matter of priority - if you haven't already done so.
There are numerous 'resisters' groups around the country and a healthy schedule of events, conferences and talks. It would be a great shame to lose this forum, but it is by no means the end of everything.

Possibly not a donkey but there was a thread a while ago making sniggering comments about identifying as 'pigs' or 'dogs'. It's been deleted of course so you'll probably say it never happened

You mean, maybe, someone using an analogy of a cat declaring itself a dog, maybe? That analogy, if used, would surely be used to suggest that a cat cannot become a dog......as a man cannot become a woman. .What's the issue with that?

Is it that you think people are referring to trans people as dogs, perhaps? If so, please take some time to educate yourself in critical thinking and in the use of analogies

should talk so much about racism
Um... where have I talked loads about racism?
I said good point to a poster who mentioned the topic, did that confuse you and think it must be me talking so much about racism?

another suggestion of Freedom Programme

I don’t know about the suggestion of Freedom Programme, but it’s really good to see the owner of this site robustly standing up to some of you and holding her ground.

but it’s really good to see the owner of this site robustly standing up to some of you and holding her ground

You must be thrilled; yet we all understand the commercial position Mumsnet finds itself in.....thank to the likes of you.

What's it like being so privileged? Is it a bit like 'white feminism'?

I don’t know about the suggestion of Freedom Programme

Is there a situation you can imagine in which an understanding of abuse mechanisms and coercive control would be a hindrance to women, including moderators on websites?

‘His’ to ‘the’ NotBadConsidering?

but it’s really good to see the owner of this site robustly standing up to some of you and holding her ground

Whilst explaining that it's because of her advertisers and agreeing to what the OP asked.

Field doesn't know about the Freedom Programme, but is extremely pleased to have got Field's way in controlling women talking. I can't express how unsurprised I am.

I do know about the Freedom Programme. What I meant was that regardless of your advice that the staff here need it, Justine clearly doesn’t.

and agreeing to what the OP asked.

Yes. Seems like a reasonable request, to change the thread title.

thank to the likes of you.

No I haven’t made any complaints to advertisers and only reported one post where a poster was being unpleasant (to me).

What's it like being so privileged? Is it a bit like 'white feminism'?

Oh no am I being subjected to your wit and acumen again?

I know what you meant, Field. It's usually quite clear what you're driving at. What I meant was that you don't think the Freedom Programme is significant here, and are pleased that Justine sees no reason to stop controlling the women here. Which is totally in keeping with your posting history. Consistency is often a virtue.

field Justine has to think of the bottom line. That's her stance. She absolutely understands that transactivism curbs free speech. She has said so.

I think it's really useful to regularly update and cement one's understanding of such things as abuse mechanisms, also current safeguarding children and vulnerable adults protocols. I'm surprised you'd think there is anyone who would not benefit from doing that, Field. How odd. Complacency is rarely a virtue, I find.

"In a mind control cult any information from outside the cult is considered evil, especially if it is opposing the cult. Members are told not to read it or believe it. Only information supplied by the cult is true. Cults train their members to instantly destroy any critical information given to them, and to not even entertain the thought that the information could be true.

Common sense tells us that a person who does not consider all information may make an unbalanced decision. Filtering the information available or trying to discredit it not on the basis of how true it is, but rather on the basis of how it supports the party line, is a common control method used throughout history.

Legitimate groups have nothing to fear from members reading critical information about them.

In a mind control cult you must be careful of what you say and do; “The walls have ears”. Everyone is encouraged to watch out and report what they see to leadership Often information given in deepest confidence is automatically reported to leadership"

they are allowed to cherry-pick negative news stories and pore over them

Yes, this is really appalling.

Definitely women should have their access to news controlled, and only be allowed to read or discuss certain pre-approved news items.

Imagine allowing them to read the news unchecked!

Imagine allowing them to read the news unchecked!

Especially news items which negatively affect them! What cheek.

MNHQ - I see the Special Rules section has now changed title.

www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

Please can you also edit the sticky thread title here on FWR as well, since that is what most people will see.

I think it's really useful to regularly update and cement one's understanding of such things as abuse mechanisms, also current safeguarding children and vulnerable adults protocols.

Yes it is.

Yes it is.

In your opinion field, how do we do that here?

Yes it is.

Excellent. We agree. Why don't you suggest it as beneficial to Justine and the mod team? They never listen to me about it! Something to do with the advertisers disapproving.

There's a reason why this type of discussion isn't permitted on other forums tbh - advertisers are skittish. They don't want to be associated with controversy.

The media, including internet media, thrives on controversy. You benefit from the hits the controversy creates. Perhaps if you looked around a bit you would see that this discussion is indeed being hosted all over the interwebs. Clearly, your advertisers are skittish, but I think it unfair to make such a generalization.

But I do think they are reasonable guidelines that recognise competing rights here.
That's the crux of the matter, isn't it. Are women's rights transphobic, or are trans rights misogynistic.
Your special FWR rules pinned post addresses trans rights.

I report abusive language personal attack posters sometimes, in hopes that the complaint department will apply the 'guidelines' equitably.