We need to talk about what transgender means

[smemorata]

Now that Stonewall has put just about everyone who ever even thought about wearing a dress under the transgender "umbrella", they have more or less forced women to push back at everyone. I find this really ridiculous and also counterproductive. Women (and men surely?) know that we are talking about different things. For example -

1. an "AMAB" who feels acute gender dysphoria and goes through a lengthy process (both legally and medically) to gain a feeling of acceptance is not the same as -
2. an "AMAB" who occasionally wears women's clothing but also enjoys male privilege in most situations
3. an "AMAB" who always wears very OTT sexualised "feminine" clothing as part of a fetish which women are expected to collaborate in.
4. a woke "AMAB" who dresses as a man, has a beard but claims to know what feeling like a woman is. Has no intention of giving up male genitalia but expects women to recognise it as female.

I have met some lovely people who are in category 1 and would actually have no problem in treating them as women in most (though not all) circumstances. But what do they have in common with the others? Are we expected to forget that festishes exist? I really resent the way that the MRAs and TRAs are asking us to treat such very different people in exactly the same way - and that's before taking into account the ROGD people and trans men. I don't see how the debate can move on until these differences are recognised.

Ah ok so because men statistically are the primary offenders we have issue with trans women using female spaces ..

Well statistics can Never be argued with, obviously that is definitely how things are no questions asked about the percentages of male victims of female assailants that don't come
Forward out of embarrassment or risk of loosing their rights to their children, or simply don't understand that their victims cause women clearly don't assault men right???

Or the sons of abusive mothers that hold their silence out of a miss placed love, boys in foster care that are routinely abused by female caregivers in the way of slave labour or for the fact that troubled boys get more money paid for them..

Listen I don't dispute for a moment that on the whole .. albeit I don't think we have a full honest picture of that whole, men pose more threat to women and that of course opening private facilities carries a risk in its self and no I'm not stupid enough to compare transphobia with racism but why is the threat a trans woman feels using the men's bathroom less important? In fact she is much more likely to receive some verbal or physical assault just trying to relieve herself in a men's room than she as a trans woman is likely to pose to anyone in the ladies room.

Then aside from the trans issue .. as a single parent of boys I'm faced with either allowing my boys into the men's toilets which you're telling me puts them at risk cause men are bad.. or bringing them into the ladies .. what are single fathers meant to do with their daughters??

Perhaps instead of making large communal toilets for all we should be considering single cubical bathrooms so that every member of society is safe .. because as a person who values the safety of every person .. I'd prefer to be fighting for that than excluding a trans woman from peeing safely.

ahenderson270

Yes, that's right. Men constitute the class who commit sex offences and are violent.

And whilst I dispute that transwomen are at an equal risk to women, the answer is, of course, a third space.

If transwomen are being subjected to attacks by men, the answer is not to make women's facilities open to men.

Show me where the campaign for a third space is, and I will sign any petition.

we have issue with trans women using female spaces ..

Interesting sentence structure here. We have a problem with MALE people using FEMALE spaces. How they identify is irrelevant, it’s the MALE bit that is the problem. Not the trans identity bit.

No male people in female spaces.

The solution is obvious if you don’t obsfucate with language.

Interesting sentence structure here. We have a problem with MALE people using FEMALE spaces. How they identify is irrelevant, it’s the MALE bit that is the problem. Not the trans identity bit.

No male people in female spaces.

The solution is obvious if you don’t obsfucate with language.

This. And it's very telling that people do.

what are single fathers meant to do with their daughters??

Do you think that single dads send their daughters into the gents alone? Because that would be batshit, wouldn’t it?

Do you think that single dads send their daughters into the gents alone? Because that would be batshit, wouldn’t it?

It almost hurts.

Everyone knows that this would be a very high risk thing to do. Yet, we are meant to completely ignore that knowledge in order to protect the feelings of those self same men.

I don't believe this poster wants a good faith discussion.

I agree; I'm out.

LangCleg - exactly right. We can feel for anyone who suffers from delusions that hurt them. I hope they find happiness. But men are not women, full stop.

The most vulnerable group to murder are babies aged 1 or younger. This is scourge on society. Most are murdered by males in their social group. The fact that most babies spend most of their time with females makes this statistic of male perpetrators even more damming.

Adults who insist they are most at risk of victimhood should remember babies cannot speak for themselves.

A sad but incredibly Important point Sid - thank you for reminding us.

If it were only transgender people carrying out sexual assault on the basis of their status I'd be totally on board for this but what you're doing here is "trans woman abused people in her care .. all trans women are dangerous to women and children and should be segregated

Except that is not what is being said. Single sex spaces exist for good reasons. I'd like for that to continue. Trans people can campaign for their own spaces in the same way women have done over the decades. This is not about individuals, but about general principles.

Also, most here don't believe in Tranansgender ideology. We see it for wat it is. An umbrella term under which all manner of people shelter. Everyone from young lesbians told they are in the wrong body; young gay men, who would rather 'transition' than risk coming out to their social circle & family; and middle aged fetishists ( a surprisingly large group, you'll find)....and then the small handful with genuine life long dysphoria who transition to try to find relief from their suffering.

Most here believe these all come under mental health disturbances - not actual material reality. Women are real. Sex is real. One cannot change sex no matter how one identifies. If you accept one part of TRA ideology then you have to accept the whole lot; including male bodies people playing in women's sport; puberty blockers for children; and the whole scale rejection of de-transitioners, as they revela that identity is not a fixed thing, but a shifting internal state.

Every sex-segregated space there is, women fought for. Even for the right to wear trousers, women fought for, being beaten in the struggle. Women marched in the streets for the first women’s toilet, and the first night of its existence, men burned it down. Women scrimped spare change from skint pockets to fund the first DV refuges and rape crisis centres, because men didn’t see the need. They staffed those refuges with their own labour.

Every single right women have, women fought long struggles for.

Males have NO right to appropriate what women had to fight THEM to win or to claim for themselves the rights and set-asides created to ameliorate millennia of oppression males did not experience and in fact perpetrated — no matter how they identify.

Whatever rights and set-asides TW want or need, they need to fight for them and build them themselves, for themselves.

In fact, if the movement had started out doing that, feminists would have likely joined in to help.

But there is word for what males are insisting on now, in their demands for the fruits of women’s labour: exploitation. And in their demand for female space: colonisation.

It’s the same old patriarchy, done up in new clothes.

the segregation of people based on the actions of a tiny minority within them.. then fine so be it

Lots of things need to be segregated, and in put into discrete categories: sport being one obvious example; certainly if you believe in equality of opportunity and a level playing field for girls and women.

Anyway, this is about women's rights and spaces - not about the rights and spaces of people who see themselves as trans. Of course we should all have equal civil rights - but this is about conflict of interest. That conflict cannot be wished away. It needs to be managed appropriately. This is the job of politics and law.

no one will have worked harder for acceptance or rights than she will have just to be legally accepted as female

You are joking? Are you aware of the length and depth of women's struggle for liberation and equal civil rights? For women to have their own spaces and services, unique to them on account of their biology and their role and position as women in ours society.

I'm not sure how old you are...but i'm of an age when I can remember when women could not take out a mortgage in their own right; were expected to give up work upon marriage; expected to 'obey their husbands in their marriage vows; and when women did not have even half of the freedoms and rights they now have today. So much has been fought and struggled for p- and that includes the right to feel a measure of dignity in our sex and some protections on account of it.

If it makes me stupid. If I'm a moron

You've come to the wrong place if you expect or want to be abused. You ought to try meeting with a group of women when they attempt to hold a legitimate meeting or conference to discuss issues which will impact on women and women's services on account of trans ideology. This forum is about as civilised and intelligent as it gets on this issue.

If I'm a moron for thinking we should be embracing each other and each others battles so that the fight may finally end then I'm happy to be a moron .. rather a moron with hope and love at the base of my intentions than what I'm seeing here

Look, I was very idealistic once. I spent two years living at the side of a road on a peace camp, amongst many other idealistic political actions But let me tell you - they were not very peaceful, and anything but flowers and rainbows. In the real world conflicts have to be managed and dealt with - they don't just disappear because we believe in peace and love and 'inclusion'.

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr we spend more time and effort in properly educating children, especially boys around consent, feminism and women's rights

Totally agree about the issue of consent. That is the main issue, in fact.
Consent. Not forceful or unwanted violation of boundaries .

well we don't know which trans people are dangerous so let's keep them away

It is not just about danger, but about protecting the natural dignity & comfort of our sex and our intimate female spaces.

Excellent post, Bicker.

It’s the same old patriarchy, done up in new clothes.

You know, it's ridiculous how many screenshots one has to make these days. Some posts I want to be sure I can re-read.

ahenderson270: '... stamp unceremoniously on my right to an opinion ...'

What you seem not to realise, ahenderson270, is the difference between denying someone the right to have an opinion, and explaining to someone why their opinion is mistaken.

At least here on FWR, no-one 'stamps unceremoniously' on your right to hold any opinion. On the contrary, it would seem to the lurking reader (such as me), you are encouraged to express your opinions, and your right to hold them is thoroughly upheld.

But your opinions will be are challenged. It will be is pointed out to you where and why you are mistaken in the opinions you hold. Some of the things you believe are false, and people explain why. You seem not to understand this.

I know many people think all opinions are somehow equal. They are not. If my opinion is that x is true and your opinion is that x is not true, one of us must be wrong. People like you, ahenderson270, it seems who talk about being denied the right to hold an opinion when their opinions are simply challenged, are not morons, in your word. (Not a word I would use, but there it is.) However, such people like you, ahenderson270, it seems do lack understanding.

There is no shame in not understanding. But, perhaps, there is something to be pitied in those who wilfully deny themselves the possibility of understanding in the face of clear explanation. This is a particular cap you, ahenderson270, might try on for size.

Fab post BickerinBrattle Thank you.
Needs repeating again and again and again

"Well statistics can Never be argued with, obviously that is definitely how things are no questions asked about the percentages of male victims of female assailants that don't come
Forward out of embarrassment or risk of loosing their rights to their children, or simply don't understand that their victims cause women clearly don't assault men right???"

One of the problems with statistics now is that male people who claim they have changed sex/gender (clunky sentence,sorry) are having their crimes recorded as if they are adult human female offenders. This skews statistics significantly.

There are men who suffer domestic violence who do not report. Very few posters on FWR would deny that. No one should be the victim of domestic or other violence.

However the focus tends to be on the abuse of women on this forum as we are talking about the rights of women. Many posters have pointed out that single sex spaces do not remain single sex if men are permitted access.

You are entitled to your opinion and you are freely voicing it here. I support your right to say it, but I also support the right of people to disagree.

Perhaps instead of making large communal toilets for all we should be considering single cubical bathrooms so that every member of society is safe

Unfortunately it has been demonstrated time and again that the subset of men who are determined to violate women and children will use any available opportunity to do so. Men will and do place hidden cameras in such establishments, knowing women will use them. Public toilets allow women to keep and eye on one another and are Proven safer - as long as women are legally allowed to challenge male people entry.

Besides, third, gender neutral facilities have been tried and were protested by trans activists as being “exclusionary” because they imply that trans women are in any way different from women.