We need to talk about what transgender means

[smemorata]

Now that Stonewall has put just about everyone who ever even thought about wearing a dress under the transgender "umbrella", they have more or less forced women to push back at everyone. I find this really ridiculous and also counterproductive. Women (and men surely?) know that we are talking about different things. For example -

1. an "AMAB" who feels acute gender dysphoria and goes through a lengthy process (both legally and medically) to gain a feeling of acceptance is not the same as -
2. an "AMAB" who occasionally wears women's clothing but also enjoys male privilege in most situations
3. an "AMAB" who always wears very OTT sexualised "feminine" clothing as part of a fetish which women are expected to collaborate in.
4. a woke "AMAB" who dresses as a man, has a beard but claims to know what feeling like a woman is. Has no intention of giving up male genitalia but expects women to recognise it as female.

I have met some lovely people who are in category 1 and would actually have no problem in treating them as women in most (though not all) circumstances. But what do they have in common with the others? Are we expected to forget that festishes exist? I really resent the way that the MRAs and TRAs are asking us to treat such very different people in exactly the same way - and that's before taking into account the ROGD people and trans men. I don't see how the debate can move on until these differences are recognised.

Yes please. Can we have a definition? Is surgery the point where a male becomes a woman?

Because that would put you at odds with a large number of TRAs. And a considerable number of them are not very nice and don't respect your right to that opinion and will tell you so quite bluntly.

It doesn't matter how cleverly you dress it up, how you play with wording or how superior you think you are in your position or intelligence segregation is segregation.

Personally if you think the only way to protect women from men is to isolate us all completely then let's start living completely separate.. like on different land masses and only breeding through IVF .. we'll be safe then right ..

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr we spend more time and effort in properly educating children, especially boys around consent, feminism and women's rights.

How we've dealt with sexual assault as a society has NEVER worked and is in desperate need for change but I'll never accept that change involves segregation .. to me that's on a level of ridiculousness as arming teachers with guns to protect kids from school shooters!

If a trans person assaults anyone it's not because they're trans.. it's because of the factors exposed to in childhood that make them unable to distinguish that barrier .. being trans is incidental .. Ted Bundy wasn't a serial killer because he was handsome and charming.. he was exposed to a childhood that triggered his already elevated risk factors of psychopath personality discovered in an MRI .. as much as you want to claim sex is biologically determined a large cause for violent behaviour is rooted in biology and then the addition of a childhood trauma or impacting event.. if that person happened to be trans then that is mere coincidence and segregation of all trans people as a hope of keeping yourself safe is as ludicrous as it would be to have all handsome and charming men segregated too!!

Personally if you think the only way to protect women from men is to isolate us all completely then let's start living completely separate.. like on different land masses and only breeding through IVF .. we'll be safe then right ..

Oh, so you're advocating for the forced imposition of mixed sex spaces across the board?

No I'm proposing that we all try harder to be more accepting remember but then I'm silly and don't know what I'm talking about for questioning the logic behind 'well we don't know which trans people are dangerous so let's keep them away'

You could say that about literally any other person on the planet

It doesn't matter how cleverly you dress it up, how you play with wording or how superior you think you are in your position or intelligence segregation is segregation.

Well yes, of course in some circumstances we segregate by sex. Because 'sex' is about the two classes of humans and their respective reproductive role, which means our bodies are different.

Are you suggesting that everything should be mixed sex? Including places like prisons?

I agree with you that we desperately need to address the problem of male violence. And yes, if trans people murder and assault women, it's not because they're trans, its because they're male.

Until that problem of male violence is sorted (and more women are killed by their intimate partners than are killed by terrorists), then separating us from them provides a modicum of safety.

As a single woman, I am much safer than a woman in a heterosexual relationship.

ahenderson270

Do you really not understand that the biggest defining factor in the person doing the assault is their sex? Do you really not understand that?

It would be lovely if it wasn't the case.

And of course, raising boys to respect women is an excellent path.

But until those statistics aren't true, we need to mitigate the risk.

And that risk absolutely increases with mixed sex facilities.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html%3Famp

Every aid agency on the planet are busy funding single sex toilets and changing rooms to stop women being assaulted.

Whilst you appear to advocate for the opposite.

In the teeth of overwhelming evidence that it will harm women.

Why?

No I'm proposing that we all try harder to be more accepting remember but then I'm silly and don't know what I'm talking about for questioning the logic behind 'well we don't know which trans people are dangerous so let's keep them away'

You could say that about literally any other person on the planet

Any male person. Are you saying that you believe people can change sex?

segregation is segregation

So you want all spaces to be mixed sex? Why?
This feels a bit déjà vu. I hope you're not about to bring Rosa Parks into this, because single-sex spaces for women and girls are not the same as racism.

You could say that about literally any other person on the planet

No. Women do not represent the same risk. They just don't. Do you understand what risk assessment is?

No I'm proposing that we all try harder to be more accepting remember but then I'm silly and don't know what I'm talking about for questioning the logic behind 'well we don't know which trans people are dangerous so let's keep them away'

It's not about "trans people". It's about males. Who have no right to access female spaces, because it violates the privacy and dignity of women and girls. It's really quite simple

Especially considering trans people are statistically more likely to be subject to assault be it sexual or physical .. they're either beaten up for being different or raped based on someone's fetishes surrounding them .. but of course trans people are the threat here!!

You know .. more people .. trans included would be 100% more inclined to have this discussion with you all if it were indeed a discussion but look how you've treated me for thinking differently .. at no point have I been invited to fairly and intellectually discuss any of the points I've raised, I've had shade thrown at me, snide remarks made about tiny parts of my posts that have been removed from context intentionally and intentionally made to feel excluded from a special club..

You all do very well talking to each other when everyone is nodding 'oh yes you're so right' but that isn't how change comes about and if you can't be fair and respectful of those who question or feel differently to you then you're not much more than a cliche of bullies with nothing to add to the actual debate.

I've no idea what 'goady' means and if in a way I was offensive and unkind then I'm decent enough to apologise, it certainly wasn't my intent.

I brought the post to admin attention with screen shots and highlighted how the OP may be opening herself up to more trouble at work. I also highlighted a few people who felt it necessary to start a little play ground nastiness with me 🤷🏻‍♀️

Thanks for giving feminist posters the opportunity to articulate these points yet again though.

As a single woman, I am much safer than a woman in a heterosexual relationship.

Oh. My. God.

That's why I'm here - It's blindingly obvious when you hear it; I've never even thought about that.

Chilling.

Especially considering trans people are statistically more likely to be subject to assault be it sexual or physical ..

Not true. There is no data which proves this as there are no reliable numbers of trans people or agreement on what a "trans person" actually is.

Especially considering trans people are statistically more likely to be subject to assault be it sexual or physical .. they're either beaten up for being different or raped based on someone's fetishes surrounding them .. but of course trans people are the threat here!!

Please post a link to the statistical evidence for this statement.

Especially considering trans people are statistically more likely to be subject to assault be it sexual or physical .. they're either beaten up for being different or raped based on someone's fetishes surrounding them .. but of course trans people are the threat here!!

Not trans people. Men.

Transmen are perfectly welcome in female spaces. Because they are female.

and intentionally made to feel excluded from a special club..

Feminism isn't a "special club". You too can give a shit about women and girls!

Goad

Verb

provoke or annoy (someone) so as to stimulate an action or reaction.
"he was trying to goad her into a fight"

Especially considering trans people are statistically more likely to be subject to assault be it sexual or physical .. they're either beaten up for being different or raped based on someone's fetishes surrounding them .. but of course trans people are the threat here!!

In the UK, there are more transwomen murderers, then there are transwomen who have been murdered. In fact, statistically, a man reduces his chance of being murdered by transitioning.

I brought the post to admin attention with screen shots and highlighted how the OP may be opening herself up to more trouble at work.

She already had said she was going to get it taken down. It wasn't down to you.

look how you've treated me for thinking differently .. at no point have I been invited to fairly and intellectually discuss any of the points I've raised

I've politely asked you questions and you have declined to answer them.

I don't believe this poster wants a good faith discussion.

You all do very well talking to each other when everyone is nodding 'oh yes you're so right' but that isn't how change comes about and if you can't be fair and respectful of those who question or feel differently to you then you're not much more than a cliche of bullies with nothing to add to the actual debate.

You're describing TRAs on twitter using T**F blocker, right?

Especially considering trans people are statistically more likely to be subject to assault be it sexual or physical ..

Could you post a link to the source of this claim please?