We need to talk about what transgender means

[smemorata]

Now that Stonewall has put just about everyone who ever even thought about wearing a dress under the transgender "umbrella", they have more or less forced women to push back at everyone. I find this really ridiculous and also counterproductive. Women (and men surely?) know that we are talking about different things. For example -

1. an "AMAB" who feels acute gender dysphoria and goes through a lengthy process (both legally and medically) to gain a feeling of acceptance is not the same as -
2. an "AMAB" who occasionally wears women's clothing but also enjoys male privilege in most situations
3. an "AMAB" who always wears very OTT sexualised "feminine" clothing as part of a fetish which women are expected to collaborate in.
4. a woke "AMAB" who dresses as a man, has a beard but claims to know what feeling like a woman is. Has no intention of giving up male genitalia but expects women to recognise it as female.

I have met some lovely people who are in category 1 and would actually have no problem in treating them as women in most (though not all) circumstances. But what do they have in common with the others? Are we expected to forget that festishes exist? I really resent the way that the MRAs and TRAs are asking us to treat such very different people in exactly the same way - and that's before taking into account the ROGD people and trans men. I don't see how the debate can move on until these differences are recognised.

I meant to post this photo from my new scientist book "being human" a year ago but was so disappointed with this page I threw it under a bed and forgot about it. It's only just resurfaced. It's heading back there now.

New scientist is generally not woke as far as I've worked out so I think it's potentially a token piss take. The previous pages on sex and brains etc were scientific.

Pencils
That transgender umbrella has "man/woman" under it defined as 'living in gender appropriate to gender identity and congruent with genitalia'. Isn't that the definition of someone who isn't transgender? Does that mean that everyone is actually under the trangender umbrella?

I don't see why women should get to define trans any more than trans people should get to define what a woman is TBH.

I don’t think any general societal group (excluding limited clubs which are bound by rules) should get to singlehandedly define their own, or any other group. Definitions are generally decided by society, added to dictionarys according to that usage (though even that seems as if it might be open to lobby groups) and perhaps then written down in more specific terms when and if they are embedded in law.

My point would be that laws should be created based on terminology that has a specific and limited meaning. Part of our problem in defending our rights is that the term women was considered so well defined that no definition was considered necessary.

The current definition of trans is so vague as to cover most of the population and any law created around it will be wide open to abuse.

Yes, you're right Prion.

“People can't change sex. The GRA was only instituted due to societal homophobia about gay marriage. It should be repealed and men should learn to accept their non-conforming brethren. That's it. No more to it than that.”

That works for me and is workable in law. Facts not feelings. Simples.

Yes we need to talk about it. The entire emperor's new clothes of trans. There's gender dysphoria. And AGP. That's it, full stop.

The problem with retaining a distinction for 'true transsexuals' is that not only has it has proved to be the foot in the door to our rights erosion but it gives credence to the idea of souls who really are trapped in the wrong sex body. Which is impossible.

The entire concept of trans needs...critical analysis (words chosen carefully to avoid deletion). .

I refuse to hand out starvation diet sheets to anorexics or admire the emperor's new clothes.

Repeal the GRA.

Absolutely agree. Repeal the GRA. The purposes for which it was created no longer exist.

The only category of trans that us feminists need concern ourselves with are the small children being told they play with the wrong toys and the teenage girls who are transitioning to escape trauma/as a copy strategy for autistic spectrum disorder/because society is so lesbophobic it’s easier to be a ‘straight male’.

Escaping trauma should include the shitshow that young women's sex lives have become thanks to internet porn. I honestly wonder about the link between ROGD and exposure to violent/degrading porn. I might want to rapidly identify out of the group who appear to have all manner of nasty sexual things done to them as standard.

OldCrone yes I noticed that. It looks like an assertion of the right to categorise everybody. I think the modern day equivalent would say c*s instead of man/woman.

OP you need to read the Beaumont Society thread.

Gender dysphoric males still need to stay out of female-only spaces.

I don't understand this elevation of the suffering of the gender dysphoric male. Yes, it's painful to have GD. Is it any more painful than any other mental health condition? Why are schizophrenic men not getting all this special love and care - their outcomes are truly terrible. Male suicide rate - also terrible. GD is not some special category of 'terrible, horrific, must have society turned inside out to cope with'.

Shoudl GD adults be able to dress in the gender stereotypes attached to the other sex ? Sure. Should they be able to rename themselves a stereotypically feminine name ? Ok. Should they be able to access medical care to deal with the GD if intractable ? Yes (with the caveat that I think SRS is unethical in many ways). Should they be sacked for being feminine males ? No. Should a landlord refuse to rent to them solely on the basis they are feminine males ? No.

And all that's enough! They don't need to use their (real) GD to ride roughshod over women and children. Most of public society is mixed - it's only a tiny % of spaces that are single sex. It's not hard for GD males to stay out of those spaces.

As for the non-dysphoric males, f*ck off. I don't give two hoots about you and your needs.

Am with Lang. It’s really that simple

And jane

Neurotrash I've got a subscription with New Scientist - I was wondering what their stance was (they have a non-binary journalist contributor).

Plan

Your definition is simply, transgender is an internal feeling that you, as a person, meet more gender stereotypes associated with the sex opposite your own.

That definition makes me transgender. Genuinely.

Yes BSgoeson,
It would make me transgender too if I believed in gender identity driving sex. But I don’t. I think all gender identity is defined by gender stereotypes and thus is a fabrication, not real. Sex is biology, XX vs XY and is real.

I have read so many, hundreds, of transgender autobiographical accounts on how they realised they were transgender. And in every single one the person recounts the gender stereotypes for their sex that they did not meet and the gender stereotypes for the opposite sex that they did meet and then offer that up as evidence that their sex does not match their gender, hence they are transgender.

Because I don’t believe in gender stereotypes, I think it’s all a bunch of BS and refuse to allow society to tell me I am not really a woman but a man because I am more masculine than feminine by their stupid rules. I’m not going to turn myself into a bearded, flat chested woman through surgery and hormones so my appearance can match my behaviour and interests as dictated & expected by a patriarchal society.

The patriarchy can go fuck itself. Masculine women exist as do feminine men. That needs to be accepted and celebrated, not viewed as a sex to gender mismatch “problem” or “dysphoria” that must be corrected through hormones and surgery.

DuMond
The only category of trans that us feminists need concern ourselves with are the small children being told they play with the wrong toys and the teenage girls who are transitioning to escape trauma/as a copy strategy for autistic spectrum disorder/because society is so lesbophobic it’s easier to be a ‘straight male’.

This. 100% this.

It's not. But somehow the trans lobby has persuaded huge numbers of people that being transgender is similar to being gay, so shouldn't be considered as a psychiatric disorder

Yes, it's amazing how this has now taken hold......People now accepting, without much question at all, that it is possible to be born in the 'wrong body'. That being trans is a fact of birth, and as with being gay, being trans is just 'the way you are.....'

This .. just all makes me so so sad, I've tried engaging in this discussion previously and her women claiming they're all about women's rights and standing shoulder to shoulder call me horrendous names, bully me, question my intelligence and belittle me for offering an alternative view point.

As a biological woman I've felt very excluded by the 'feminist movement' or at least the Mumsnet one! So I honestly cannot fathom how excluded a trans woman might feel .. but her feelings don't count right because you believe she isn't entitled to a thought or feeling on this because her dna coding is different to yours ..

I will never understand why and how a group of a people that claim division and exclusion has held us back for centuries continue to encourage division and exclusion.

I'll never be able to lose hold of vision of unified peoples standing together regardless .. simply just regardless of anything.

And because of that .. things like this just make me so very sad and disappointed.

Yes I exclude transwomen from the category of women. I also exclude them from the category of kittens and tables because they are simply not those things.

Sorry that the concept of women makes you sad and that women standing up for what women need makes you sad. I don’t wish any harm to any transwoman and they are free to campaign for their own needs as long as they don’t encroach on mine.

Were you disappointed for the women assaulted by Karen White ? Sad and disappointed that they were locked up with a predator ?

I will never understand why and how a group of a people that claim division and exclusion has held us back for centuries continue to encourage division and exclusion

You might "feel sad"; but I feel so damn angry that many seem unable to empathise with the position of women; of what it means to be female in society. the reasons why women are vulnerable and why they require single sex spaces for their own dignity, comfort and safety.

Other than that then nobody here believes in anything other than "live and let live".

because her dna coding is different to yours

Everyone’s DNA is unique but FEMINISM is for FEMALE people. If it’s not exclusive to 51% of the population it’s absolutely pointless.